Episode 20 // Captain Moroni: A New Perspective on War and Peace with Elray Henriksen
Oct 22, 2024
Listen on Spotify or Apple Podcasts or watch on YouTube.
In this milestone 20th episode of the Proclaim Peace Podcast, hosts Jennifer Thomas and Patrick Mason are joined by peace scholar Elray Henriksen as they dive into the latter portion of the Book of Mormon, often referred to as the "war chapters" of Alma. The episode explores the extensive battle narratives between the Nephites and Lamanites, highlighting people such as Captain Moroni and Pahoran. Join them as they unpack the lessons and themes of peace within these intense narratives.
Timestamps
[00:02:53] Costs of war in scripture.
[00:05:21] Allegorical interpretation of battles.
[00:08:04] Defining peace through Galtung's triangle.
[00:14:44] Millennium of peace commitment.
[00:20:13] Militarism and cultural implications.
[00:23:10] Inner Captain Moroni.
[00:25:04] Worldview in defensive wars.
[00:30:01] Temptation and human nature.
[00:35:02] Internal struggle and temptation.
[00:38:22] Captain Moroni as a model.
[00:44:25] Grace in relationships and judgment.
[00:47:43] Finding peace through spiritual practice.
[00:50:20] Expansive conversations about faith.
Transcript:
(00:03-00:06) Jennifer Thomas: Welcome to the Proclaim Peace Podcast. I'm Jennifer Thomas.
(00:06-00:19) Patrick Mason: And I'm Patrick Mason. And this is the podcast where we apply principles of the gospel and read the Book of Mormon to become better peacemakers. Jen, can you believe it? This is our 20th episode of Proclaim Peace.
(00:20-00:35) Jennifer Thomas: I actually cannot. That's a little bit stunning. And it's probably a little bit like a mission. It's every episode feels like, oh, my gosh, this is so hard. And we've got to climb the cell. And then you look back and you think, oh, my goodness, where's the time gone? It has just been a really remarkable experience.
(00:36-01:50) Patrick Mason: Yeah, absolutely. So thanks to all of you who have joined us on this journey, or maybe this is your first episode. We're really glad to have you, whether you're a long-time listener or a first-time listener. So we are making our way through the Book of Mormon, slowly but surely. And we have finally reached the latter portion of the Book of Alma, which people often refer to as the war chapters, these like 20 chapters of war. We knew that they were coming, here they are. And just extensive descriptions of battles between the Nephites and Lamanites, but also these contain some of the most memorable characters in the Book of Mormon. I mean, Captain Moroni and Teancum and the stripling warriors. And so over the years, it's been interesting. I've heard these lessons in Sunday school a lot over the years and heard people talk about it. And sometimes I hear people talk about how this is their favorite part of the Book of Mormon. They can't wait to get to Captain Moroni and they love, they have posters on their wall of the stripling warriors. Other people I've talked to say that once they get to Alma 43, they sort of just like flip some pages and skip ahead to Helaman. Jen, what's your experience been like with these chapters?
(01:50-03:22) Jennifer Thomas: Can I be a little bit of a dork for a minute? I actually think that probably there's a good relationship often to how you feel enthusiastically about the battles in the Book of Mormon and say how you feel about Marvel movies. The same kind of people sort of like both of those things. And here is why I cannot watch Marvel movies, because even if I know people aren't dying, I'm like, oh, oh, oh, that person's dead. And what I also do, which really drives my husband and my sons crazy, is I'm like, OK, that is like $3 billion worth of infrastructure that just got destroyed in that battle in that city. And who's going to put that back together? And who's going to pay for that? Who's going to pay for that? And how are we going to solve that problem? And as dorky as that is, I actually think it sort of tells us a little bit about one of the ways we probably should interrogate these chapters a little bit more. Because while they are talking about war and while they are talking about battlefields and strategies and fortifications and what it means to fight a war, they don't maybe do well without us approaching them with new eyes. They don't do the work of asking us what are the costs of that battles? What truly is happening? Who's going to pay for things on the back end emotionally, socially, spiritually? And I think if we approach them as a Marvel movie, we lose not only some of the spiritual lessons they're trying to teach us, but they may be primus in the wrong ways. So I think that's one of the things that we can start to think about today is how can we approach those chapters in a way that make us aware of the infrastructure.
(03:22-04:49) Patrick Mason: Yeah, I love that perspective. I think sometimes when we read these chapters, we don't fully count the cost. I've heard this attributed to Stalin. I don't know if he actually said this or not, but that one death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic. right? And there's a sense, I mean, Mormon does recount the numbers of dead and the battles and all the things lost. But there is a way that kind of the human dimension of this can get lost. And at least in my experience, again, having sat through lots of lessons and read these chapters many times, I've typically heard these chapters talked, in Latter-day Saints settings at least, talked about in a couple of different ways. And the first, I think, is a pretty straightforward historical reading, right? This is just Mormon's account of a bunch of battles. And one of the ways that this is useful to us is that these chapters lay out maybe a set of principles about when it's appropriate to go to war. There are passages here about defending your family, your faith, your neighbors, your country, and also maybe how we should go about fighting war. It talks about how Moroni did not delight in bloodshed and so forth. So I think one way is a pretty straightforward reading of something like a Latter-day Saint version of a just war theory that you might get in other traditions.
(04:50-05:40) Jennifer Thomas: So I think that's also the main way those have been also taught to me in my life. There's also a second interpretation that I've had shared with me or that I've heard people express that these chapters are meant to be sort of an allegory, a way that we can step above the fray and see what's happening as a battle between good and evil, right? And I understand why people do that. Most of us, hopefully, knock wood, are not and will never be soldiers on physical battlefields. And the Book of Mormon is supposed to be primarily a document, a narrative that will help us with our spiritual development, our spiritual journey, rather than turning us into super soldiers, right? So if we view it that way, then these chapters can be a valuable lesson about how to fortify ourselves spiritually and defend ourselves against the onslaught of evil.
(05:40-07:38) Patrick Mason: Elray
(07:38-07:41) Elray Henriksen: Thank you. Thank you, Patrick. It's great to be here. Thanks.
(07:41-07:53) Patrick Mason: Hey, well, we always ask our guests to start by answering this one question, the deceptively simple question. How do you define peace?
(07:53-10:07) Elray Henriksen: So I got I got this question last night, so I kind of have been lying in bed thinking about how would I define peace? My go-to would be a Johan Galtungian kind of approach first, which is, you know, there's a triangle and on each side of the triangle there are ways by which peace can be addressed. So, for example, The ABC triangle is kind of the way he's kind of gone with it and he talks and he says you know, that you have the attitudes, the behaviors and the conditions or the contradictions depending on, on what is, is, uh, is there. So, uh, and this is a dynamic triangle. It's not static. It's just how, uh, you know, do you have peaceful attitudes? Do you have peaceful behaviors and do you have peaceful conditions? Uh, I, I did find that very, uh, attractive as a definition. at the time when I first learned about it, and it reminded me of the Book of Mormon. So I went to the Book of Mormon with that, and perhaps not with the place where you would think I would go. But at the end of King Benjamin's talk, King Benjamin actually warns us about the many ways by which we may sin. You know, and he says pretty much, you know, if you do not watch your thoughts, your words and your deeds, you know, you may perish. Uh, and therefore, oh man, remember and perish not. So for me, it's kind of like our thoughts are pretty much perhaps the, uh, the attitudes we have. And then, uh, our words are, are, uh, you know, the conditions that we kind of establish for other people through, through our words. And then, you know, our behaviors is really the deeds that we do. And if we don't watch how we interact with each other on those three levels, peace might be difficult to attain.
(10:07-10:20) Jennifer Thomas: I love that. That's fantastic. So I would love to have our listeners be able to get to know you a little bit better. Can you tell us what led you to the work of peace and, um, your interest in nonviolence?
(10:20-14:32) Elray Henriksen: It's kind of a long story because I'm already 47. So, but let's try to kind of go back a few years. When I was a kid, I was reading in the Ensign because I used to be Mormon, you know, grew up LDS and something along the line of doing military service was a good thing, you know, and it would be an honorable thing to do. And I think that that kind of says more about the Ensign back in the days than now. But that kind of marked me as a young man, you know, thinking about how we would react towards violence and service in the military. And in Norway, it's a draft. So, you know, you really have to… At the time, I would have needed a very good reason for not uh, participating in the military service. Uh, which I didn't feel my membership in the LDS church provided me with, right. It was kind of, you know, we grew up with the captain Moroni pitches and all that stuff. So, so what, uh, ended up, uh, being one year in the military service in Norway led to a second year where I, I became a Sergeant, uh, at the recruit, at the recruitment, at the recruit center. And one day I had a recruit who came up to me and we had, we started having a deep, one of those deep conversations where he was struggling as a Christian to find his place in the military. And I didn't see the problem. You know, I, I was kind of, uh, but I, I, I listened to him, uh, and then he kind of turned around, turn it around on me. And he said, but aren't you a Christian? Because he knew that I was going to church. And I said, yes, I am. And then he said, what on earth are you doing here? And it took me a bit back because I was like, you know, the, I hadn't really thought about it in those terms that being a Christian was antithetical to possibly military service. That kind of took me back and, uh, took me back. And then, so I really reflected upon that question for, uh, for the, for the following, uh, for the time that followed. And I decided to go on an LDS mission. So, you know, I enrolled what I call enrolled in God's army, uh, at the time. And, uh, and, uh, it was, it was really a good experience to be on a mission. I just met my former missionary companion, favorite missionary companion who flew up from Arizona to Logan. And we, we kind of went down memory lane together and it was, uh, uh, good stuff. I mean, you know, hard working hard was good, but at the same time, it was also perhaps the most difficult year of my life. Um, uh, and then I had to, for, uh, different reasons, uh, and, uh, and my mission early. and went back home to Norway on the 29th of December 1999. I remember that very well. And it was the Y2K, and people were really worried about the end of the computer world, at least. And that night, I kind of said to myself, on the 31st of December 1999, I kind of said to myself, I really hope this new millennium is a millennium of peace. I really do. And, uh, from my LDS upbringing, I kind of thought that millenniums only happen if we contribute towards them, you know, uh, that we have to figure out, figure it out. We have to do it ourselves, hopefully with the help of God in some way. Right. Uh, but that was kind of where I landed and I committed myself to that thought, uh, that night, you know, that, uh, let's make the next millennium, a millennium of peace. And that's how it started. So, you know, the rest of the story is pretty much how I kind of tried to live out that commitment.
(14:33-15:30) Patrick Mason: I'm not sure how good of a start we're off to with this millennium, but we still have 975 years to go, right? Right. It's still time to pull it out. Exactly. So you talked about that you spent the past several years, most of your adult life in Community of Christ. And in that church, Belief in the Book of Mormon is not a test of faith in the same way that it is in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It's accepted as a book of Scripture, but doesn't have quite the same prevalence and authority in the Church. But you have retained, and I know this from lots of conversations with you, you've retained a really strong interest in the Book of Mormon. It's still meaningful to you in your spiritual life. So, can you talk about that, especially in light of this commitment to peace that you have?
(15:30-18:36) Elray Henriksen: Well, I think that the Book of Mormon is, and this we've discussed before, Patrick, you and I, I mean, it's kind of, for me, it's an anti-war text. And, and this has come through my reading and my studies, uh, in peace studies where I kind of ended up after, uh, after my commitment, right. I mean, I, I ended up studying peace and, uh, and that's, uh, through that, that you and I met, it was the, the, the Mormon peace building work that you were starting thinking about and, and, uh, and, and my own discovery of how Mormonism could be a religion of peace. So my interest has remained because I tend to go towards the end of the book, not towards the beginning. And for me, uh, it's how the book ends that reveals, uh, the true message or the true meaning of, of, uh, of the book. So, you know, although we are doing the Alma chapters, I think the Alma chapters are very much part of Mormons. you know, the abridger of the record, part of Mormon's kind of main narrative. This is actually where he would go to in terms of trying to find out how to live a life as a military leader, and how to, in the midst of the darkness that he experiences, and tries to commit to the way Captain Moroni conducts himself in war. But as we see from Mormon's perspective, you know, he kind of says that we, my people have become past principle and beyond feeling. uh, towards the end of the text. And, and, uh, he finds it very difficult then to kind of instill in them the right principles, uh, in the midst of, of the difficulties that they're going through. Um, and, and Moroni then the second Moroni as in the, the, the one who at the end of the text, um, says, um, I am left alone to write the sad tale of destruction of my people. So, you know, it takes us pretty much to reading the passages that we're reading about now in the light of those comments, you know, that we may be wiser than what they have been, right? Especially Mormon and Moroni, who at the end of the text don't see any hope any further. And I think that's why I read it as an anti-war text in the light of the abridges and the son of the abridges kind of response to the harm that their people are causing on others and the harm that they experience themselves.
(18:37-19:39) Jennifer Thomas: So I have a question for you specifically about, let's go to the first Moroni. So he is the man, Captain Moroni, that many people see as the great archetypal hero of the Book of Mormon, right? I think people can read those chapters as a straightforward historical account that lends itself to talking about whether it's a just war theory or an allegory between battle and good and evil. We've talked about that a little bit in our introduction. But we've invited you on today to help us consider maybe some alternative views of Captain Moroni in more peaceful ways that we might think about what he was trying to accomplish and do. And I'm just really interested if you have any thoughts about whether the ways we've traditionally read this text, and I mean, I think you've intimated a little bit that you feel this is a anti-war text, that some of the ways we tend to read this text can have inherent dangers for us to not maybe understand the message that the writers and abridgers were trying to actually tell us.
(19:39-20:03) Elray Henriksen: Yeah. I mean, if you, if you look at the Captain Moroni's story, just as literal and historical, I do find that there are some dangers with it. Um, you know, or at least perhaps a downside, let's put it that way. Like you said, that militarism might enter into our culture.
(20:04-20:07) Patrick Mason: Yeah, especially if it's a kind of uncomplicated reading.
(20:07-20:13) Jennifer Thomas: Yeah, just this is the hero and the heroes, you know, lead us in time of war, right? Yeah.
(20:13-22:02) Elray Henriksen: Yeah. And, and, uh, and, uh, and, and when militarism creeps into culture, we don't, uh, critically, uh, think between the relationship between the citizen and the military necessarily. So it becomes an uncritical reading of it and an uncritical engagement with it. I mean, the military needs to be democratically accountable. And I think that is even in Captain Moroni's war, that would be a thing that they are accountable to some leaders. And that's probably also a traditional reading among Latter-day Saints, you know, that there is that kind of accountability that is built in. But we've seen in many other countries where that hasn't been the case. and where military regimes actually are leading undemocratically their country. So that's one of the dangers I see with the Book of Mormon being read historically or literally and interpreted that way, that we kind of just have an uncritical view of that. The second one, which is more interesting to me, at least, is the spiritual approach, or the spiritualized approach, which is, this is an account of the battle between good and evil and a continuation of the conflict in the war in heaven. My problem with that is that we don't potentially see enemies everywhere.
(22:02-22:04) Patrick Mason: We're always the good guys.
(22:04-22:12) Jennifer Thomas: We're always the good guys. I try so hard not to be the good guy in the narrative, but my brain always wants me to be the good guy. Good gal.
(22:12-23:09) Elray Henriksen: Yeah, the good gal. And I think that that kind of is… The second challenge, right? If that, if we spiritualize the message of the Book of Mormon, uh, especially the war chapters, it might lead us down a road where because we see enemies potentially everywhere, we are, we also feel threatened. We have anxiety. Uh, we are afraid and framing our lives around the idea that there is a conflict between good and evil, even if that's the case. you know, uh, might, might lead us down roads where we externalize the enemy rather than seeing it as an internal narrative. And perhaps that's where I'm, I'll be going a bit today is kind of like, okay, who, who is your inner Captain Moroni? You know, and, and who, what are the darker corners of your life?
(23:10-24:00) Jennifer Thomas: Well, and I don't want us to gloss over that. We don't need to spend too much time on it. But I just really want to put a pin in the fact that if we really do see ourselves engaged in this deep spiritual battle, then we see other people, it's very easy to see other people as our spiritual enemies. And then we've stopped seeing them as children of God or as of equal worth to us. And, and we're not in the then in the position to minister to them or to be disciples or to share the gospel with them or do any of the things that we're called to do as disciples of Jesus Christ because we've set up spiritual enmity between us and others. And so I really appreciate you pointing that out because I think if we let ourselves slide down that direction, it becomes the obstacle to our most important work as disciples.
(24:00-25:28) Patrick Mason: Yeah, I mean, I think about, you know, the Sermon on the Mount that Jesus teaches both in the New Testament and then again in 3rd Nephi, and this idea of loving our enemies. In this sermon, Jesus is not unaware of evil. in the world, right? The orientation towards it is very different, to talk about loving your enemies, praying for those who persecute you and so forth. And I really liked, President Kimball once wrote an article about this in 1976, where he talked about that the purpose of the gospel is not, and I'm paraphrasing him here, but it's not to defeat our enemies, but to love them so that they're no longer our enemies. right? To recognize the fundamental humanity in them. So again, I have found value in my life sometimes reading these chapters as a kind of spiritual allegory, right? And how do I defend myself? How do I, you know, how do I think about righteousness in certain ways? But I think that is a real danger for us to think about. If our entire worldview is a world at war, And inevitably, I'm the good guy, and so where are the enemies out there? That can lead us down to some difficult paths, just in terms of our heart, the condition of our heart towards other people. So El-Rey, help us think about, okay, so what might another way to read these chapters and think about Moroni be?
(25:29-32:49) Elray Henriksen: I kind of need a hermeneutical key. I need to kind of go somewhere else to kind of find inspiration for what might be another reading, right? And for me it's kind of going to the three temptations of Christ in Matthew 4 or Luke 4, but I prefer Matthew 4 because the sequencing seems to correspond a bit more with the text as alluded to in in in the three wars three defensive wars that Moroni is fighting you know there's the first Zoramite war then the Amalekite war and then this the second Amalekite war which is really the fight between Captain Moroni and Amoron so so here we have If we look at the three temptations of Christ, we all know that what Jesus is actually dealing with is internal. Satan does appear, but Satan is just there to tempt. He's not having a physical battle with Satan. Satan's role is to tempt the Savior. What I like about that story is ultimately that Jesus seemed to have answers. to the way he's being tempted. You know, if it's, you know, just turn those stones into bread. I know you're hungry. Just do it. And then Jesus says, you know, you can't live off of bread alone. You have to kind of live into every word that comes out of the mouth of God. So for me, that's kind of like how he deals with the first carnal temptation. And then there's a bit more difficult, perhaps, to a second temptation that seems to be a bit more difficult to kind of apply. But nevertheless, it's like he takes it up on the pinnacle of the temple. And in many different interpretations of that text, it is that if he throws himself off the temple and is caught up by the angels, the priestly class will recognize him as the Messiah. It's not written in those words, but that's the implication, right? Is that if, if, if there's a miracle, if there's a grand spectacle, you know, pretty much, uh, in the circus. So we had the bread now the circus, uh, you know, Jesus will be recognized for who he is. That's a good temptation, right? I mean, it's a, it's a real temptation for Jesus there. And then the third one, uh, well, and then Jesus says, don't tempt your God, you know, don't, don't, don't go there. That's not, there's no point in doing that. And then the third one, which is really the third temptation, you know, just worship me. And then all these things that you desire will be given unto you, you know, because, because he says, I have the power to give them to you. Right. And that's where like, Jesus obviously gets fed up and says, you know, that's, that's the, uh, the devilish temptation. You know, I ain't interested, leave me alone. Okay, so how does that all apply to Captain Moroni? So what if Captain Moroni is ultimately the resistor of temptations? And that the three wicked leaders are ultimately just personification of the temptations that Captain Moroni might actually resist? You know, these are defensive wars ultimately, you know, it's not Captain Moroni is not going out and to take them out. He's kind of saying, no, we have to build breastplates, you know, and protect ourselves physically while against the, you know, the, the, the weapons of, of, uh, the Lamanites, uh, Zarahemna seems to be kind of, very set on the idea of taking over power between these two. So it's always about power and greed, really. I mean, these are the things that we know the three leaders, the three wicked leaders are after, which is also what Jesus, in his own way, was looking potentially into. but finding alternative ways, non-violent ways, I would say, to respond to that and coming out with a mission statement that is very much about liberation. Amalekia, you know, there's a fantastic story with Amalekia, which seems to be a more realistic kind of temptation than just jumping off the pinnacle. But Amalekia sends his guards up to Leonti up on the mountain and says, come down here, you know, and and and we will make friends, you know, and and and Leonti keeps on saying no, no, no, until the fourth time. And then, uh, and then he, he, you know, they're going to meet halfway. Uh, and Leonti then is poisoned by the gods and, and, uh, and, uh, Amalekia through deceit, right. And through spectacle afterwards by, uh, becomes the king of the Lamanites. So that's where the sensual temptation lies. Uh, you know, and the reason I'm kind of using these words, carnal, sensual and devilish, is because people will recognize that as the three, the three ways by which our fallen human nature actually gets expressed. Uh, and that takes me to Alma 4210, which is just before the war chapters, by the way. And this is where, uh, Alma is talking to his son, Corianton, uh, and explaining him, uh, and explaining him how, It was expedient that mankind should be reclaimed from this spiritual death. You know, a spiritual death as well as a temporal. You know, so this is kind of where he talks about the fall beforehand. And should the soul never die, we would die in our sins, right? I mean, that's the whole point. So we would have a temporal and spiritual death. And they would have become, if they had died in their sins, they would have become carnal, sensual and devilish and by nature. And this, but this probationary state became a state for them to prepare. It became a preparatory state. And that's when we can, you know, we would go with spiritualizing the message of the wars, right? There's a battle between good and evil. But what is that evil? And this is my criticism of spiritualizing it, is that we don't see necessarily then the allegories and how they link to the carnal, the central and the devilish parts of our human nature and how these can be overcome.
(32:50-34:51) Jennifer Thomas: One of the things that's always intrigued me about the temptation of Christ, right? And I've come to think about it is just the sense that he is being pushed to his limits in certain areas. And it's become really important to me personally as sort of at the beginning of his mission, it's almost like he experienced a proto-Gethsemane or a proto-Atonement where he felt the full weight of these temptations that as human beings, we feel in the world, right? These are the things that we're going to be exposed to hunger, a desire, you know, to control and have power and to, you know, have money and all of these things. And he's, and we can rest assured knowing that he felt those things. And then gives us a pathway to withstand them. And to me, that's kind of important because if you look at the narrative of Christ's life, it would be very easy without that temptation to say, well, he never felt the same kind of temptations that I did because he was Christ. He never worried about being hungry. He never worried about you know, his position in society. And we actually know that, in fact, that's not true. At the very beginning, he feels those things fully for us. And we can trust that he understands both how we feel faced with those things and then how he gives us really beautiful roadmaps about how we should respond. And the reason I bring that up is because I really like this idea that you've introduced of us being able to look at Moroni as being someone who felt some of these tensions and then we can see how he responds. So it's not, then we're not seeing him as just this purely military leader and as this person who just was great and glorious and good because he went out and trounced his enemies, but that he was a person that was great and glorious and good because he was met with some of these similar temptations that we might feel. And in some cases we get a sense of seeing how those played out, right? Sometimes not great because he wasn't Christ, right? So sometimes there wasn't like a perfect response to that and we get the chance to see that.
(34:51-36:25) Patrick Mason: And can I just jump in? I mean, yeah, I really like that. And I think that where this reading is so useful to me, El-Rey, is the sense of it's not externalizing these enemies, but it's actually the Zarahemna inside me. It's the Amalekite inside me. And that's my Captain Moroni. For Muslims, they talk about the greater jihad. Jihad means struggle. It's the struggle inside yourself. It's the struggle to tamp down these temptations and to submit to God. So I like this reading of Captain Moroni a lot because I can think about the Zarahemla in my life. I can think about these temptations. I can think about how I'm tempted to power, to fame, to glory, to carnal, sensual, and devilish. These are all inside of me. And it also, I like that, because we like Captain Moroni because he does all of this on behalf of faith and family and country and so forth. I will be of greater service to my family if I have, if not defeated, at least quelled these temptations inside me. I will be a more faithful person if I work on these temptations inside of me. I think I'll be a better citizen. I'll be of more service to my country if I am not seeking power and glory and all of those kinds of things. So I really like this reading. I think it's a useful way to look at it.
(36:25-36:55) Jennifer Thomas: And I think the temptation flips that because what Satan often says to us is, oh, you will be of great use to your family and to your country if you have power, if you have authority, if you have done what you need to do to get yourself in a position where you're not ever hungry. Like then, then, and only then are you in a position to be of service. And I think we can read really beautifully through this, that that is not what made Moroni of service. His power and authority wasn't made him, wasn't what made him of service.
(36:55-37:50) Elray Henriksen: Right. So I went to Hebrews two with this one, right. Uh, you know, verse 10 and verse 18. Here we're talking about Jesus both as a high priest, I mean as a high priest, and it says, for it became him for whom are all things and by whom are all things in bringing many sons unto glory to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. Right? So who is the true captain of our salvation? Well, it's Jesus Christ. And then in verse 18, for in that he himself has suffered being tempted, like you said, He is able to succor them that are tempted. So there is a clear link between the captain of our salvation in Hebrews and the life of temptation we have to deal with here on earth.
(37:50-38:44) Jennifer Thomas: And my guess is that's also the source of some of Moroni's impatience, because once he's gone through those fires and he has met those temptations, sometimes at great cost, and he sees what he's trying to fight for his people, it just is really frustrating to him if he thinks there are moments when other people, I think that's human nature, have maybe not met those temptations to the same, like he wishes they'd succeeded as well as he has. And I think the story of Paharan is one of those, right? Okay, so I think one of the reasons that we admire Captain Moroni so much is Because of what the Prophet Mormon said about him specifically there's that famous passage in Alma 48 that just lingers in our ears if all man had been and were and ever would be like unto Moroni Behold the very powers of hell would have been shaken forever Yea, the devil would never have power over the hearts of the children of men So when you read that how can you not want to emulate Moroni? I know and so
(38:47-40:01) Elray Henriksen: I mean, I struggled with Captain Moroni for a long time, right? I mean, he was the figure, I think, in the Book of Mormon that stood out negatively for me, right? Because he was the military leader that was being glorified. But then, If you start reading it the way I've kind of applied my reading to it, you know, through the New Testament lens and with Hebrews 2, you know, you get a sense of, well, this is not the worst of guys, right? He's actually trying. He's trying. And you can see, like you said, the human nature of what he does. But what I, what I, where I get stuck on Alma 48 is not If we all men had been and were and ever would be, like in Tomorrow and I, I get stuck on the other part. The very powers of hell would have been shaken forever and the devil would never have power of the hearts of the children of men. I think this is both in the Bible and in the Book of Mormon, and I can't pinpoint exactly where, but that's a description of the millennium. Right.
(40:02-40:07) Patrick Mason: That's a description of… Yeah, Nephi talks about it, Revelation talks about it, yeah. Right?
(40:07-40:50) Elray Henriksen: Yeah. You know, where ultimately if the devil has no more power over the hearts of men, over the hearts of the children of men, we can have generations of people living in peace with each other. Generations. So I kind of take then now Moroni as the model of the potential millennium or the best millennial there could be. You know, the one that resists the temptations that Christ ultimately shows us how. You know, the power and dominion that we all crave somehow, and that's not necessary.
(40:50-41:02) Jennifer Thomas: So it's not that he is to be gloried because he exercised power well, but because he knew when it was not appropriate to claim it, and he didn't let it warp him.
(41:03-41:24) Elray Henriksen: right and because he's a prototype of christ ultimately we have to see we have to see jesus in captain moroni and and uh uh and and you know like i said you know he's the true captain of our salvation that's really to whom we should go in terms of uh trying to figure out what kind of people we want to be.
(41:24-41:33) Patrick Mason: Yeah, and I'm guessing if the prophet Mormon were to show up on this podcast right now, and I'm guessing if we- He's coming next week.
(41:33-41:34) Jennifer Thomas: Maybe, yeah.
(41:34-43:09) Patrick Mason: Who knows? We've reached out to his people. We're still waiting to hear back. I'm guessing if we pushed him on that language, he would say, of course. I mean, really, it's about Jesus, right? He's the one who shakes the foundations of hell. He's the one that we want to be like. you know, but I really liked Moroni too, right? As I was abridging this record, I really liked this character. In fact, I named my son after him, or maybe that's one thing. But one of the stories about Moroni that I've always struggled with a little bit is, or maybe more than that, is his relationship with Pahoran, with the chief judge, right? So, He's worried that Bahoran is kind of sleeping at the wheel while the king men take over the government. You know, there's this internal divide within the Nephite society while Moroni and the others are out, you know, fighting the Lamanites. And so he dashes off this angry letter. that we have in chapter 60. And now as readers, we actually have perspective that Moroni doesn't have. We know that his accusations are not well-founded. We know that he doesn't have all the facts, right? And so he's, you know, Ted Lasso always says, you know, be curious rather than having judgment, right? So Moroni is leading with judgment rather than curiosity. He accuses Pahoran of being a traitor, makes all kinds of threats against him, uses the language of cleansing the inner vessel, right? I need to come and cleanse the inner vessel. So Elre, how do you make sense of that story?
(43:09-45:15) Elray Henriksen: I mean, for me, it's like Jesus continuously asks a question in the New Testament. What is the kingdom of God like? And then he provides parables. And one of the parables that seems to me to be parallel to this Chief Judge Pahoran and Moroni interaction is actually the loving father and the prodigal son. Pahoran is ultimately our inner Chief Judge. that gets disconnected from the Moroni who's caught in battle with the evil spirits. You know, I mean, the inner demons that we all struggle with, right? And he has them from all sides and all places and is really getting worried. And that's when our relationship ultimately to God, who is our chief judge, our inner chief judge, gets cut. And we start blaming God and we're saying, God, where are you? Why aren't you helping me out here? And why have you abandoned me? But in reality, Pahoran is the response that we would hear from God, right? Which is, I'm coming running towards you. I'm doing my best here. Doesn't hold it against him. I don't hold it against you. This is entirely fine. Uh, you know, I love you. Uh, and, uh, and, uh, and signing off, you know, I mean, so, so, so, so, so for me, it's kind of like, if we can go there, you know, with, with this story, I mean, then we realize that our inner vessel is always somewhat, uh, ready to respond, you know? And then the outer vessel is dealt with, you know? So, so it's kind of like, where is, do we recognize the grace that God actually has given us? Uh, and in this story for me, that is the grace that Pahoran shows to Moroni.
(45:15-45:31) Jennifer Thomas: So I always imagined him in my head, writing the letter he really wanted to write to Moroni, crumpling it up. melting those plates whenever they were trail, you know, and then waking up the next morning and like, okay, here's the letter I'm gonna send.
(45:31-45:35) Patrick Mason: I have a big file of deleted first draft emails.
(45:35-45:57) Jennifer Thomas: Right. And, and, and I think it's okay if we I guess one of the things that's beautiful about his response is, my guess is it probably was considered, right? And I think as peacemakers, that's really important to us. He slept on that one. He slept on that one, right? And I was like, all right, I'm going to put myself in Moroni's shoes, and I'm going to write a different letter than the one I wrote when that got read to me aloud.
(45:57-46:23) Elray Henriksen: Imagine if we let our inner judge Sleep on that one before we kind of started sending ourselves emails or letters, you know, angry letters and emails and going like, you could have done better. You, you, you, you stupid person. You know, I mean, all these things that we kind of tend to say to ourselves and, and, and, and allow the chief judge of us just be graceful.
(46:23-46:25) Jennifer Thomas: Slow it down. Yeah. Slow it down.
(46:25-46:25) Elray Henriksen: Yeah.
(46:26-46:57) Jennifer Thomas: I love that. So Elray, I just want to tell you that I have, and I've shared this with Patrick before, that I have always connected when I've been reading in Mosiah, to the works of Paul. I found really deep connections there that have been very meaningful to me, but has never occurred to me at any point to take these war chapters and try to find teachings and readings in the New Testament about them. And I just feel like you have brought so many amazing insights today that I otherwise would not have found, and I am really deeply grateful for that.
(46:58-47:16) Patrick Mason: Yeah, I love it because I'm often frustrated when I read these chapters. I'm like, where's Jesus for 20 chapters, right? I mean, little references here and there, but I feel like it kind of drops out. So this really helps me, Elray, thank you, in terms of connecting it back to the captain of my soul. So thank you.
(47:16-47:43) Jennifer Thomas: Yeah, it has really been wonderful. And I think I'm going to try to work harder to do that in other places where, like Patrick said, Maybe Jesus isn't overt, but how can I find him connected to other scriptures? So before we sign off, we always close by asking our guests a second hard question, which is, where do you find peace? What do you do in your life? What are patterns or processes or places that help you get to a point of peace?
(47:43-49:26) Elray Henriksen: So I've been really blessed in Community of Christ with a spiritual director that I kind of connect with once a month. And we kind of review the month and we kind of look at how am I tending the holy within? And I think that this kind of way of engaging also with scripture gives me peace. You know, it's kind of, there are insights to scripture that can transform and cleanse the inner vessel in that sense, right? And so I tried to do that, you know, centering, finding the quiet center within. And it's either through meditation or or mindfulness especially, but prayer that is informed by scripture, but also informed by this inner pursuit of what that means to have peace within. And then to let that kind of also transpire in my relationships with people, because I don't think that inner peace is sufficient you know, it has to kind of participate in the transformation of the world, contribute to some level of improved relationship, or what we would refer to as just and healthy relationships between myself, between me and God, between me and others, and between me and creation, not the least.
(49:28-49:51) Jennifer Thomas: So I love that so much. I love the way that you've defined your pursuit of peace as really proactive and engaged, that it's not something that you're going to a place to sort of try to receive passively, but you're building it through intentional spiritual practice and then actions that result from that. So thank you. Thank you for speaking with us today. It's been delightful to have you.
(49:51-50:14) Patrick Mason: Yeah, thanks so much, Elrae. Thanks everybody for listening today. We really appreciate it. We just want to invite you to subscribe to the podcast and also to rate and review it. We love hearing feedback from listeners, so please email us at podcast at mweg.org. We also want to invite you to think about ways that you can make peace in your life this week. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time.
(50:20-50:35) Jennifer Thomas: Thank you for listening to Proclaim Peace, a proud member of the Faith Matters Podcast Network. Faith Matters holds expansive conversations about the restored gospel to accompany individuals on their journey of faith. You can learn more about Faith Matters and check out our other shows at faithmatters.org.