Proclaim Peace BONUS Episode // Peacemaking in Politics: Finding Your Voice in Uncomfortable Spaces

Proclaim Peace + Uncomfy Podcast with Julie Rose

Listen on Spotify or Apple Podcasts.

In this bonus episode of the Proclaim Peace Podcast, host Jennifer Thomas explores the challenges of political engagement in the face of slow or no change. Jennifer shares her thoughts with Julie Rose on the Uncomfy podcast, emphasizing the importance of perseverance in peacemaking. The discussion highlights how discomfort is often a necessary part of fostering understanding and building relationships that contribute to a beloved community. Listeners are encouraged to embrace uncomfortable conversations and stay engaged, as the long-term rewards of peacemaking far outweigh the short-term discomfort. Join Jennifer as she reflects on these themes and offers practical advice for navigating challenging interactions.

Timestamps

[00:02:46] Advocacy outside comfort zones.

[00:05:21] Women of faith in politics.

[00:09:05] Peacefully expressing anger effectively.

[00:10:17] Channeling anger to action.

[00:14:51] Advocacy as a long game.

[00:18:24] Politics and instant gratification.

[00:21:42] Finding purpose and joy.

See full show notes from the Uncomfy podcast episode here: https://www.byuradio.org/how-to-stay-politically-engaged-when-you-feel-like-giving-up-jennifer-walker-thomas

Watch this episode from Uncomfy on BYU Radio’s YouTube channel here.

Transcript

(00:03-00:05) Jennifer Thomas: Welcome to the Proclaim Peace Podcast. I'm Jennifer Thomas.(00:06-00:12) Patrick Mason: And I'm Patrick Mason. And this is the podcast where we apply principles of the gospel and read the Book of Mormon to become better peacemakers.

(00:15-00:58) Jennifer Thomas: Back in March, I had the opportunity to chat with my good friend Julie Rose as a guest on her Uncomfy podcast. We talked about how hard it is to stay politically engaged when you aren't seeing the change you want. It's an understandable feeling, and we've all been there. I certainly have. But I shared a little bit about why I think it's worth pushing past that. What does that have to do with peacemaking? I'd argue a lot. Peacemakers have to be ready to play the long game and to move into conversations that have the potential to be unsettling. Peacemaking almost never feels comfortable in the short term, but the payout is always more comfort in the end, which is so worth it. That's how we build the beloved community now and eventually Zion. So join me as I chat with Julie.

(01:01-02:03) Julie Rose: Hey, it's Julie. Welcome to Uncomfy, a show about sticking with moments that challenge us. It seems like every single day I get some feedback that's tough, or I hear a perspective I disagree with, or I just find myself outside my comfort zone. And the natural reaction is to bail or lash out. You know, it's fight or flee. If we do that right away, we might miss a chance to learn something, or feel new empathy, or deepen a relationship. So the question's how, right? How to stick with that discomfort just a little bit longer. Well, that's what this podcast is about. Real people telling real stories of choosing to stay open and curious in challenging moments. I'm glad you're here. Now, let's get uncomfy. I'm joined by Jennifer Walker-Thomas. She's co-executive director of the nonpartisan nonprofit group MWAG, a faith-based community of women dedicated to advocating for ethical government and preparing women for civic engagement. It's a group I've personally enjoyed participating with, and Jen is also co-host of the Proclaim Peace podcast. Jen, what a treat. Thanks for joining me today.

(02:03-02:15) Jennifer Thomas: Thank you for having me. I was thinking as when you asked me to join that I spend most of my life uncomfortable. So I'm a pretty good, I'm pretty well qualified to participate in this podcast, probably more qualified than about anything I do.

(02:16-02:35) Julie Rose: That's great. It was tailor made for you. And I feel lucky to even catch you for a moment because I know that you have been full tilt doing advocacy work and education work. Since the new administration took office and just kind of thrown a lot of stuff out there to respond to, have you been outside your comfort zone lately in the last week?

(02:35-03:42) Jennifer Thomas: Yes, I actually can. So I was attending a gathering that was focused on foreign relations and particularly talking about changes in international aid and the position of the United States abroad. And I just want to qualify for anyone listening that my academic training, which is my fancy way of saying my undergraduate degrees, were in Italian and art history. And I was surrounded in this room by people who were professionals. Either they had worked for the Foreign Service or they had PhDs in peacebuilding or had worked deeply in foreign affairs. And I kept asking myself over and over, over the course of the two days, what do I have to add to this conversation? And that is an uncomfortable place to be, to not exactly know how and where you fit into a conversation and what you have to add. And that is something that I find myself doing on a regular basis. And the good news is, I think I can tell people, is that if you sit with that discomfort long enough, you actually find that you really do have something to add.

(03:42-03:56) Julie Rose: So, I mean, can you give me, like, what do you, how do you, how do you do that? Well, so in that case, then, you know, are you thinking to yourself, um, one response I would have would be, I'm just going to sit and listen. Like I got nothing to add here. I'm just here to learn, keep my mouth shut.

(03:56-04:42) Jennifer Thomas: That is absolutely the best place to start. But let me just say one thing that I have found is when you find yourself in a situation where you are sort of the odd person out, And you feel least like the other people in the room. The default, our sort of human default is to say, I do not belong. I don't have anything to contribute here. And what I would suggest to your listeners is that's actually the moment in which you are most needed. Because by definition, you are sitting in a place where you have a perspective that absolutely no one else in that room has. that you are thinking about things as an outsider or thinking about maybe a demographic that isn't being consulted or impacted. And so sometimes the very things that make us feel most uncomfortable are the things that qualify us to sort of lead out.

(04:43-05:21) Julie Rose: What you're describing about feeling like, I think, I hope I have something to offer here. It feels like it's important that I be in this room, but also I really don't know what the next step is. Yeah. Sounds to me like Something that I bet a lot of women who participate in MWAG feel on a regular basis. So maybe you could just describe for us kind of how MWAG operates in order to help. Because I know you've been getting a lot of national attention, like national media outlets covering this organization of thousands of women. who I guess the world finds it kind of unusual that women of faith would want to be engaged in politics and peacemaking.

(05:21-07:12) Jennifer Thomas: Yeah, I think it is unusual. And so I think we started getting attention because we were sort of an anomaly. We were sort of a new kid on the block doing things a new way. But one of the things that we found is by leaning into that difference, bringing the perspectives of women to the table, We find that over and over again, whether it is on panel discussions at conferences or sitting with legislators or with opinion pieces, the perspectives that those women have brought to the table are unique and have something fantastic to add. But I will say to you that we have to scaffold women a lot to help them get past their own discomfort and help them believe that they are capable of adding something to the conversation. And if you don't mind, I'll give a very specific example. In the last, if you look back five, maybe even 10 years ago, there weren't a lot of, in the Intermountain West, opinion pieces from women in papers. And the opinion pieces that were there were often coming from women who had professional qualifications or credentials, and that qualified them to sort of put their words out there. And MWAG created an opinion lab, an op-ed lab, where we scaffold women and help them. They come to us with an idea, they draft a piece, we can give them suggestions, give them professional editing advice, and then help them try to get those opinion pieces posted. And you would think that that was just us helping women get their ideas out there, but it turns out that those op-eds have been extraordinarily successful. Sometimes they have been picked up by syndicates and picked up by newspapers six, seven, eight times across the country because those women had something unique to add, but they didn't know it. And we had to help them get to a place and give them the assistance that they needed to get their voice out there. But once it was out there, it turns out it had something significant to add to the conversation.

(07:13-07:33) Julie Rose: Yeah. What do you hear from elected officials? Because I know one of the things the organization does is calls to action. Hey, here's this thing that's happening. You don't tell people which side to take. You say, hey, here's a way for you to get involved in a moment that matters. What do you hear from elected officials? And I know right now we've recently been hearing that, you know, that they've been getting

(07:35-08:40) Jennifer Thomas: Yes, so I will actually tell you, counterintuitively, again, you would assume that legislative offices are completely swamped, that they have their positions fixed, and they know how they're going to act, and they don't want to hear from their constituents. That's a narrative we hear over and over again. We actually, in the last 10 days, have been hearing repeatedly from staffers that the letters that are coming from the women in our organization are helpful, they are clarifying, they give them new perspectives, and they are regularly encouraging us to make sure that we are sending more of them. So that's sort of counterintuitive. You wouldn't think. I mean, like I said, the narrative out there is that these people don't care. They don't want to hear from you. What you say isn't going to matter. But the messaging that we're getting from legislators is the exact opposite, that thoughtful, considered, respectful, peaceful. And that doesn't mean that they can't be assertive or clear in their opinion, which all of our women are. But they're not personal attacks. They're not steeped in partisan language. And those kind of letters not only get through, but actually have an impact.

(08:41-08:54) Julie Rose: How do you respond to those uncomfortable moments where people say, being nice isn't going to get you anywhere? And being a peacemaker is not what we need. What we need right now is people to stand up and fight.

(08:55-10:02) Jennifer Thomas: Well, I'm going to give you a New Englander response. I live in New England. I've lived here for almost all of my adult life. And one thing that you will find out about New Englanders is they are not very nice, but they are actually extraordinarily kind, which means that they don't necessarily do performative niceness very well, but on the merits of the thing, they will have your back. And that is kind of what we are asking our women to do is to be kind in the best sense, which is that we want them to be clear. We want them to be honest. We want them to share letters that have their strong opinions and can even indicate when they think that legislators are falling down or when they're not meeting the moral need of the moment. But that doesn't mean they have to have personal attacks or call into question that person's intelligence, you know, and and letters that are that are peaceful, and I do not mean peacekeeping, I mean peacemaking, that are seeking to cross a divide and trying to find a place of common ground and to help people see a better future, are always effective. I just really believe that. They always help change the moment and they certainly can change the way a legislator is thinking long term.

(10:03-10:07) Julie Rose: So can you be peacefully angry? Is that possible?

(10:07-10:55) Jennifer Thomas: Yes, I absolutely think. I think, but there's a difference with what you do with that anger, right? And I mean, anger is a perfect example of discomfort. If you want to talk about being uncomfy, right? And sometimes we try to resolve that anger by lashing out or being hyper emotive or being super aggressive. And we think that that kind of will ease our discomfort and resolve it. And it might for a moment, but I don't know that it gets us anywhere productive. But if you take your anger and you're willing to sit with yourself and say, why am I angry? What do I feel like is being violated? What do I feel like is wrong here? What do I actually want to see be different? And what is the most productive path to getting myself and the people around me there? You can channel that anger to action and to productive change.

(10:58-11:42) Julie Rose: There's so much public frustration and anger towards elected officials, you know, across the board. And I know that you sit in rooms with these elected officials, you know, bringing messages from the women that are part of your organization and sometimes also, you know, expressing your own desire for them to to behave a certain way or to vote a certain way, right? How do those conversations go? I've actually never sat down with a member of Congress and asked, you know, I've never had the chance to ask my senator or tell my senator, I am really frustrated with the way that you're behaving on this issue or the way you're voting on this. How do you express that and how do they receive that?

(11:42-14:16) Jennifer Thomas: I will say that one of the real problems with this hyperpolarization and the cycle of attack is that even when you sit down to talk to someone, you can almost always sense that those conversations start from a position of guarded fear of the other person in the room. There's almost always a sense of, I know that this person isn't clearly on my team. We sort of signal to each other, this is my team, this is not my team. And MWAG, because we are nonpartisan, I think almost every conversation we go into, there's an element of, I don't know what team you're on. And that makes people anxious. And sometimes it makes them aggressive. And it is always our inclination. And what we've trained women to do is to deescalate that situation Because we already know if someone started with an attack, if we attack back, nothing is going to get done. And so try to de-escalate that situation, try to find common ground, and remind the person that almost in every situation we have come into the room with members of both party, constituents of both parties, and then try to articulate our position and explain why we think also often that it is to their advantage to kind of consider embracing this position. And we have never had a situation, and I can say this with great honesty, where we have left not being A, welcomed back, said, please reach out again. It doesn't mean the staffer or the legislator has done what we wanted to, but they have always wanted more dialogue. And they have often thanked us for actively that the meeting didn't go the way they expected it to. And in many cases, they've apologized. And so I guess what I'm saying to people is, I know that we want, we're right now in a position where we feel a lot of disdain for those that are in public service. And I guess a couple of things that I would remind people of, they're under extraordinary pressure right now that many of us can't really imagine. they have taken on a responsibility, and we should hold them to that responsibility. I'm not saying we let them off the hook. But the mechanisms and ways by which we do that have the potential to be more successful or less successful. And I guess we have to decide what outcome we want, whether we just want to emote to them, or whether we want to actually make progress. And making progress is often going to require that we ourselves manage our emotions.

(14:16-14:51) Julie Rose: Okay, so but what if What if you don't see the progress, right? So your call to action, you know, you write this respectful letter to your senator about please vote this way on this particular nominee, you know, to the cabinet, and they don't. And you just feel like, what was the point? They didn't listen to me. I should have just vented at them. Like, next time I'm going to really give it to them. I mean, what do you think about that? What's the point of even doing it when it feels like so much of the time they did what they were going to do anyway, it seems like. I 100% hear you.

(14:51-16:40) Jennifer Thomas: I want to validate that because that is the way I often feel, just deep, profound disappointment in the people that that make the decisions that they make. A couple of things that I would say, and I really hope these don't sound super Pollyanna because I do believe that advocacy is a long game. First, I believe in democracy and I believe that democratic governance is a representation of who we are. So that doesn't just mean it's a representation of who my legislators are, but it means it's also a representation of who we as citizens are. So if you have done this job well as a citizen, if you have reached out in peace, if you have reached out in thoughtfulness, I would just want to remind you that you have exercised muscles and gained your capacity to better meet the moment at hand. You are a better citizen than you were before you went through that exercise and you are more prepared to actually meet this really tremendous challenge that we're facing. It also lets you signal, it signals, who are the people that are doing this the way I want to do this? And then you can find them and work with them. If we want to participate and if we want the world to be the world that we envision, we have to be willing to do the hard work repeatedly over and over and over of being the people that create the society that we want. And it's not an easy answer, but I have found extraordinary comfort being in community with people who are doing this work this way. It's comforting. It's sustaining. It makes me a better person, not a worse person. And it allows me to have a group of people that I can talk with and conceptualize a better future with. And I think those are the kind of people we need right now. People who can conceptualize something different and better and are willing to act for it.

(16:40-16:55) Julie Rose: Yeah. That's just so profound, Jen, because this idea that the answer to feeling discouraged is to could be to lean in a little further and say, well, I'm not going to let that push me away.

(16:55-16:57) Jennifer Thomas: I am not letting that push me out. Yeah.

(16:57-18:12) Julie Rose: Yeah. I mean, I have to admit, perhaps with a bit of embarrassment that, you know, I've I've been in the position of writing to a city council person. I'm like, please don't vote this way on this particular thing. And then I'm like, oh, surely they're gonna read my beautiful letter and they're going to, you know, understand and change their mind. And then I see like, they all voted the other way. And I'm like, well, that was pointless. I got my hopes up. Now I feel kind of stupid. And I mean, I haven't written that council person again, right? Like immediately my, I guess it's my self-preservation is to kind of go to the safe place, go to the more comfortable place, which is like, fatalistic, you know, whatever's happened is going to happen. The world, they don't pay attention. And I do think that's part of part of this disengagement that I'm hearing you say that like that's that's exactly how democracies get weaker is when when people get so frustrated that we disengage and we don't vote or we don't pay attention. We don't follow, you know, what's going on. And we allow that to push us out of instead of leaning into it.

(18:14-19:30) Jennifer Thomas: I just want to point out something that I am super guilty of. So I just am going to say, but your expectation was that you would write this letter and then you would get what you wanted, right? And sometimes I think that we tend to think of politics, we live in a society that is so based on instant gratification. We can Amazon all of our needs. We can scroll to self-soothe. There are just all these ways that when we are uncomfortable, we have Absolutely instant solutions. And we actually, I think sometimes have a disproportionate amount of anger and frustration when systems don't immediately meet our needs. And I, again, I realized that people are probably saying, Hey, Jen, massive needs are not being met. I will stipulate to that. And we need to work as hard as we can for that. But the work is exactly what we have to do. We have to repeatedly and now, so then you need to say, okay, so turns out my city council is not working the way I want it to work. Do I know people who think the same way I do? Do I find five of them to go together to meet with someone? Do I conceptualize what within my city is within my change as a group? There are other avenues, but that requires thought and persistence and discomfort.

(19:31-19:46) Julie Rose: Jen, I just have to ask you finally, I'm sure a lot of people are listening or watching and being like, well, that's great, Jen, that's amazing. I know. They're thinking I'm nuts, yes. Or they're just like, well, this is a lady who's got it figured out. Was this always going to be your path? No.

(19:46-21:53) Jennifer Thomas: Um, I, um, I studied, like I said, art history and Italian as an undergraduate. Um, I, um, worked in, um, major gifts fundraising as a, uh, you know, an adult, and then I stayed home and raised my kids, but, um, I was always interested in politics. I participated in local government in my tiny little town, um, in various ways. I ran for office. I served on our, it's called town meeting in New England, but is essentially our town legislature. I participated in that. I've worked on getting particular initiatives passed. I served as a PTA president, you know, all sorts of local and civic leadership positions. MWIC has launched me into a whole different space. It's outside of my comfort zone. It's outside of my town. So I just want to say that I, to anyone listening, I've been doing this now for several years. I feel like I have a strong sense of purpose, a clarity of vision of what we need to do. And yet every single day, the doing of it leaves me uncomfortable. It means I have to every single day push out of my comfort zone, do things that I thought I would never have done, ask people for things that I thought I would never ask people for, argue for positions that are complicated. But I will say there is extraordinary There's actually, and this is a funny word to use at a time like this, joy. There is, even in dark times, there is extraordinary joy to be found working with good people in a common cause. And I think that the forces that are sort of pushing at us right now are trying to fracture us, to pull us in a way that we sit in our discomfort alone, and I would just, urge people to decide what matters to you, to turn toward it, to find people to work with alongside as you kind of find that purpose and work towards it. And make sure that in that process, you are finding joy. And I really would argue that it's possible and kind of want to promise that it is.

(21:54-23:14) Julie Rose: Jen Walker-Thomas is the co-executive director of MWEG and co-host of the Proclaim Peace podcast, which you can find anywhere podcasts are available. You'll want to check that out. And you can find out more about the work of MWEG on Instagram, at mormonweg, or on their website, mweg.org. Jen, this has been really just a pleasure. Thanks for your time today and for the work you're doing. Thanks for having me. I appreciated the opportunity to talk about it. And thank you for getting Uncomfy with us today. I'd love to hear your thoughts on our conversation today. You can reach me at uncomfy at byu.edu. If you've been outside your comfort zone recently or had an opportunity to get involved in some political advocacy, I'd love to hear how it's gone. Again, our email address is uncomfy at byu.edu, or you can connect with us on social media. And I'd love to have you share this episode with someone in your life who you think might also enjoy it. Let's keep this conversation going. In the meantime, if you love diving into thought-provoking discussions, check out my other podcast, Top of Mind with Julie Rose. Jen had a small role in an episode we did several years ago about the many forms that activism can take, so we'll put a link to that in the show notes. Uncomfy is a BYU radio podcast. Samuel Benson produces it, and the team includes Enrique Prado, James Hoopes, and Sam Payne. Our theme music was composed by Kelsey Ney. I'm Julie Rose. Can't wait to get uncomfy with you again next week.

(23:19-23:38) Patrick Mason: Thanks everybody for listening today. We really appreciate it. We just want to invite you to subscribe to the podcast and also to rate and review it. We love hearing feedback from listeners, so please email us at podcast at mweg.org. We also want to invite you to think about ways that you can make peace in your life this week. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time.

(23:43-23:58) Jennifer Thomas: Thank you for listening to Proclaim Peace, a proud member of the Faith Matters Podcast Network. Faith Matters holds expansive conversations about the restored gospel to accompany individuals on their journey of faith. You can learn more about Faith Matters and check out our other shows at faithmatters.org.