Proclaim Peace S2 Episode 1 // The Old Testament: A Source of Peacemaker Lessons

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In this episode of the Proclaim Peace podcast, hosts Jennifer Thomas and Patrick Mason welcome listeners to Season Two, emphasizing the ongoing need for peacemaking in a world filled with conflict. They discuss the importance of the Old Testament as a source of wisdom for peacemaking, highlighting its lessons on humanity, redemption, and God's unwavering support. The hosts encourage listeners to embrace the Old Testament and its teachings, fostering a community dedicated to peace and understanding.

Transcript

Jennifer Thomas (00:00)

Welcome to the Proclaim Peace podcast and welcome to season two. I'm Jennifer Thomas and I'd like to also welcome my cohost Patrick Mason. Patrick. 

Patrick Mason (00:07)

Hey, we made it to season two, Jen!

Jennifer Thomas (00:09)

We did. I think I look back over the last two years and I have a hard time imagining how we did it, but we did, we're here. And yes.

Patrick Mason (00:18)

And people are listening, that's like the best thing.

So thanks to everybody who's listened through all those episodes in season one and who actually asked us for a season two. So that's why we're here.

Jennifer Thomas (00:27)

Yes. I was going to say, we wanted to share a little bit with you today as we launch this season about why we're doing it. It isn't just because Patrick and I have nothing better to do and season one was done. And so we decided to do season two. It isn't just because we wanted to flow along with come follow me. You'll note that we took a little bit of a break last year. So it isn't inevitable that we'll continue to do that. But as Patrick and I were thinking about whether we wanted to pick this project up again, ⁓ the same things that were true when we launched the project, continued to be true and also appeared to have sort of escalated. When we launched the podcast, I shared with you part of the reason that MWEG was interested in supporting this, and it was because we were concerned that perhaps the great discomfort that we as God's children were feeling with the state of affairs wasn't simply that ⁓ we were spending too much time on social media or ⁓ economic conditions were worsening. Although those things are true, but certainly ⁓ we would like to propose that part of this is that as God's children, our native happy state is one of peace, and that is what we feel when we're close to him with him and when our world most approximates his design. And as that changes and shifts and maybe peace goes out of the world, we as ⁓ the divine part of us feels a significant sense of discomfort. And when we want to do something about that, we're not quite sure what it is.

And we proposed at the beginning of this project that what we could do was become peacemakers. And both Patrick and I feel very strongly that that is still the case.

Patrick Mason (02:01)

Yeah, I think there's always conflict in the world. That's one of the things we learned very strongly, I think, in season one is that conflict is simply a feature of the world. It's not a bug. ⁓ It's a feature. And the question is how we engage it. so we shouldn't be surprised that still two years on, we're still experiencing a lot of conflict in our lives, in our culture, in our society, in our politics ⁓ et cetera. I think for me, what it simply means, Jen, is that it's a reminder that I always have to redouble my efforts, right? The work is never done. We see progress. we see some regress. the call never changes. And that it's an opportunity for us to lean into that. And so I'm excited for just ongoing conversations. There's so much wisdom from so many people out there, so many incredible peace builders who are doing great work. And I think especially, I think one of the great temptations is to give in to despair and to hopelessness. And I hope, one of the things that I love about this podcast is that every guest that we talk to gives me hope.

Jennifer Thomas (03:09)

Yes.

Patrick Mason (03:19)

and gives me a sense that there is good in the world, there is peace in the world to be made, and that we can do this together.

Jennifer Thomas (03:27)

Well, and together is what we want to do is how we want to do when we launched this project, Patrick and I honestly had absolutely no idea whether anyone would listen. Would this be an audience of our friends and family? ⁓ Maybe a few. I'm not entirely sure my children listen to this podcast, but it turns out that there are thousands of you, literally thousands of you who follow this podcast regularly, who, who listen and are invested in this process. And I think for Patrick and I, that has been a demonstration that there are thousands of people interested in participating in making this a more peaceful, just, equitable world, and ⁓ who have a desire to reduce the conflict that we're facing. And so that, to me, has been, I think, one of the most extraordinary witnesses of that there are many of us who want peace, and we are willing to work to have it. So we are gonna jump in to the Old Testament.

I guess I would love to have Patrick tell me why, because I think that Patrick's gonna make the case to me and to all of the rest of you as to why the Old Testament can actually be read through a lens of peacemaking and how there is a lot there to study.

Patrick Mason (04:38)

Okay, let me try to make this case, Jen. Let's see if I can persuade you at least. Okay. Okay. So one of the lessons I learned from season one is to not be afraid of conflict. And I think that many of us are afraid of the Old Testament. I think we have a kind of a conflictual relationship with the Old Testament. it's a very long book.

Jennifer Thomas (04:42)

Yes, I'm your audience of one.

I agree.

Patrick Mason (05:04)

It's very complicated. are some parts, frankly, that are pretty boring. You know, I'm looking at you Chronicles and Numbers. ⁓

Jennifer Thomas (05:12)

kind of irrelevant, not to be rude. I shouldn't say the scripture's irrelevant, but it's just not. Yeah. Yeah.

Patrick Mason (05:14)

Yeah, there's some parts exactly like why does this matter? Right?

And also there are some parts of it that kind of rub against our modern sensibilities, whether it be its portrayals of God or what people do or all these kinds of things. It seems so ancient, so antiquated that the customs and culture seems so distant from our own. Right. So I think a lot of us have a kind of mid to high conflict relationship with the Old Testament. And I think a lot of people, a lot of Latter-day Saints, kind of secretly or not so secretly dread when it comes up every four years in gospel doctrine.

Jennifer Thomas (05:53)

Our conflict response is avoidance. Like I'm just gonna avoid that scripture.

Patrick Mason (05:55)

Exactly. Right. Yep. I was having a conversation with a friend recently, somebody who who loves the scriptures, loves the gospel, is a deep reader, deep studier. he said, I think I'm just going to read like two or three books out of the Old Testament this year. There's so much to read in the world. Why would I spend all year reading this book? And I think a lot of people feel that way. ⁓ So, OK, so here's the case.

This is one of our oldest books. Like people of faith have been reading this book for thousands of years and have been finding it relevant for thousands of years. on this podcast, we hold up Christ as the ultimate peace builder who we exemplify. Every scriptural lesson that Jesus learned about peacemaking, he learned from the Old Testament. Think about that.

Jennifer Thomas (06:44)

Yeah, and the references he was using to teach other people, that was the context he was using to teach.

Patrick Mason (06:50)

Yeah, he didn't have the New Testament. He didn't have the Book of Mormon, right? ⁓ He didn't have all these. So when he went to the scriptures to learn about peace and peacemaking, he went to what we call the Old Testament. He didn't call it that, they just called it the Bible, right? Or the writings or the prophets or whatever. And so sometimes I think we give the Old Testament a bad rap, it's just like this angry God who's like punishing people and it's just violence and genocide all over the place.

But there are beautiful lessons of peace and peacemaking that Christ himself learned and repeated and echoed and taught. so I think there's something to it there. There's one more case I'm going to make here. So I teach at the university, one of the courses I teach is called History of Christianity. And so I teach all the different heresies throughout Christianity, of which there are many.

Jennifer Thomas (07:39)

Yes.

Patrick Mason (07:41)

One of the earliest heresies in Christianity was called the the Marcionites or Marcionism. this ring a bell, Jen? ⁓ 

Jennifer Thomas (07:49)

I've never heard of this in my life.

Patrick Mason (07:51)

Okay, I think many of us are secret Marcionites. So there was a guy named Marcion very early in the church. This is like second century. And he said, hey, now that we have Jesus, now that we have the writing of Paul, now that we have the Gospels, like he also had the Old Testament, and he says, when I read the Old Testament, I find it kind of icky, right? I don't like the God who's often on display there. So he said, that can't be right. So Marcion, what he claimed is he says, let's basically toss out the Old Testament now that we have Jesus. He actually recommended that we only read a little bit of the Gospels, too. He was pretty select. His Bible was very, very slim. ⁓ But he says, let's toss out the Old Testament, because that is not that a true revelation of God, that's like a false God that's revealed there. And very early on, it was one of the earliest heresies that Christians across the Mediterranean world rejected. They said, no. Yes, okay, we have the gospels, we have the teachings of Jesus, we have the teachings of Paul and the apostles, but we're not gonna reject the Old Testament. I think sometimes we become kind of secret Marcionites.

Patrick Mason (09:01)

And so I want us to sort of hedge against that and to say what is the God is trying to tell us, not in spite of the Old Testament, but through the Old Testament.

Jennifer Thomas (09:10)

Well, and one of the things that I personally love about the Old Testament, even though I do have a little bit of a conflicted relationship with it, is because it brings you face to face with sort of sometimes the harshness of humanity unfiltered, right? Sometimes we prettify things now and we filter things, but the Old Testament, these are stories that are thousands of years old and it's, you see

kind of the basis nature of humanity sometimes on display in an unfiltered way. And yet there's no interest Graham filter there. There's no New Testament filter. There's no, you know, there's no heretical filter, right? It's just there. And ⁓ I think people had different sensibilities. And I think it's important for us to those sensibilities force us to come face to face with the, in some ways, the darkest places that humans can go.

Patrick Mason (09:41)

Yeah, there's no Instagram filter on it.

Jennifer Thomas (10:06)

And I think that's partially why we reject that. We want to say, ⁓ that won't happen. And God actually really doesn't ever get that angry. And we just want all of the badness not to exist. And I just want to present a counterfactual that to me, one of the beautiful things about the Old Testament is in fact, the repeated message of God saying, it doesn't matter how bad it's gotten. I still want you back. I still consider you mine, I'm still going to make a pathway for you to return. so I think if we're starting this new year, as some of us are, feeling like things are a little bit grim and ⁓ we're descending into places of darkness that we had hoped we would never see in our lifetime, instead of saying, it's all awful and it's never gonna get better.

I think the message that we will be blessed to hear over the course of the year, over and over again, is that God is still with us, God still wants us, and he still has made a way for us to be redeemed. The worst things that we do, both as individuals and humanity, need not define us if we turn to God and really are willing to be welcomed in as his covenant people. So that to me also is what peacemaking is about.

Peacemaking is at its very foundation, it is redemptive. It is this image of being able to transcend the worst parts of ourselves and become and create the best society possible. and our best selves possible. So I think there's a lot there for us and I am really excited to ⁓ participate. One of the things I think we do hope to do this year, because this is the Old Testament, we hope to bring you lots of voices that are not necessarily just Latter-day Saint voices.

Patrick Mason (11:54)

Yeah. And I think you nailed it earlier, Jen. I think we oftentimes read the Old Testament wrong because we read all these stories about the prophets and patriarchs and mothers and matriarchs, and we confuse the Old Testament as a story about the heroic faithfulness of humans. And I actually think the Old Testament, the reason why it's persisted, the reason why it is just as relevant

in 2026, as it was 2000, 3000 years ago, is because it is about the foibles of humans and the faithfulness of God. 

Jennifer Thomas (12:30)

Exactly. Yeah. I love that.

Patrick Mason (12:43)

It's interesting that, so Chad Ford and I are teaching an institute class on Christlike peacemaking, and we just had our first class of the semester, and we asked all the students, we said, pick a scripture about peace from any of the standard works, just whatever you want. We just left a blank slate. And the very first scripture that somebody, you know, when they raised their hand and reported on was from the Old Testament, not from the Sermon on the Mount or the Book of Mormon, but from the Old Testament. And they read Isaiah 41 10, and it's God saying, do not fear, I am with you. Do not be dismayed, for I am your God. I will strengthen you and help you.

I will uphold you with my righteous right hand." And I think that is exactly the message to peace builders. In a time of conflict, in a time of despair, I think the call of God is always a call of faithfulness, a call of hope, and God saying, I will support you. I will be on your right hand. And that's the kind of faith that I think the Old Testament can inspire. At least that's the kind of faith and hope that I hope to find in it this year.

Jennifer Thomas (13:43)

Fear not. That will be our kind of theme for the year. We hope that you will join us, that you will not fear the Old Testament, that you will not fear the things that are swirling around you in the world and in your life, but that you will be able to come to this podcast twice a month find anecdotes to that fear. ⁓ Ways to ground yourself in peace and most importantly, to become the source of that peace for those around you.

We are excited for this adventure, part two. We're grateful for those of you that had joined us on part one and hope that you will continue with us as we share more with you about the Old Testament.

Jennifer Thomas (14:20)

Thanks for listening to this episode of Proclaim Peace. To hear more, you can subscribe on a podcast app of your choice or on YouTube. You can always find full show notes or transcriptions at proclaimpeace.org.

Patrick Mason (14:33)

Proclaim Peace is a partnership between MWEG and Waymakers. You can learn more about Waymakers at waymakers.us. Thanks again for listening and we’ll see you next time.