"Proclaim Peace" Season 2, Episode 3 // Navigating Peace in Relationships, With Jennifer Finlayson-Fife

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4u3a_0wn8Cw

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Jennifer Finlayson-Fife joins Jen and Patrick to discuss the multifaceted nature of peace, particularly in the context of relationships and marriage as they read about Adam and Eve. She emphasizes that peace is not merely the absence of conflict but involves a sense of well-being and mutual respect. The discussion explores the importance of navigating differences, the role of conflict in fostering growth and intimacy, and the significance of agency and responsibility in relationships. Additionally, the conversation touches on societal pressures regarding gender roles and the impact of these dynamics on personal relationships. The dialogue encourages listeners to embrace conflict as a means of creating deeper connections and understanding in their relationships.

Transcript

Patrick Mason (00:00)

Hi everyone, and welcome to the "Proclaim Peace" podcast. I'm Patrick Mason. I am here as always with my friend and co-host, Jen Thomas. How are you, Jen?

Jennifer Thomas (00:08)

Doing well. New year, new hope.

Patrick Mason (00:10)

There we go. I love that. New you, right? Exactly, right? Even if you've already broken the idea that you're gonna go to the gym every day, but still there's a possibility for building peace.

Jennifer Thomas (00:13)

Yeah, everything's new. So yeah, no, I have a brother who periodically just declares it his year. That's his way of like overcoming obstacles. And I am, I'm, it's the year of peace, Patrick. We're bringing peace. We'll bring it wherever we can.

Patrick Mason (00:30)

Okay. Awesome, love it. Love it. Yeah, it's like the Chinese, year of the dragon, year of whatever, this is the year of peace. OK. Well, and the Old Testament is gonna help us do this. And so as we were launching into the Old Testament, we've talked about creation and now we're gonna talk about Adam and Eve a little bit. I think this is, I think for all of humans,

Jennifer Thomas (00:40)

Yeah, this is the year of peace. Yep. Yep.

Yes?

Patrick Mason (01:00)

⁓ Certainly those who are in the of Judeo-Christian civilization or in that realm. I mean the Adam and Eve story looms so large, right? And there's so many different ways it's been taken and interpreted. I think sometimes quite helpfully, sometimes a little less helpful here, right? And so we want to really think about Adam and Eve and we're gonna spend a couple of episodes actually.

Jennifer Thomas (01:17)

Not so much so, yeah.

Patrick Mason (01:24)

Thinking about the Adam and Eve story and what it tells us about conflict and peace building, maybe in ways that we haven't fully thought of.

Jennifer Thomas (01:31)

Yeah, think we'll hopefully explore in this episode the ways that we sometimes think about Adam and Eve as a sin or not to sin, to sin or not to sin relationship. But in fact, we really would like to explore that it is kind of where conflict enters the world and that it models some of the ways that.

We're drawn into conflict and then also Adam and Eve can model for us the way that we can move beyond conflict. And ⁓ I think because it is this very archetypal relationship, male, female marriage, that it comes out of a commandment to be one, to be unified. And if we just like we started talking about the Book of Mormon and said that conflict starts with a family and ends with whole societal conflict,

The Old Testament is helping us to see that resolving conflict almost always starts with these deep relational issues. If we can do it, if we can be one in a relationship, it's gonna be much easier for us to be one as a society and to build a Zion community.

Patrick Mason (02:33)

Absolutely. And I think there's this kind of deep truth about the Old Testament in the way that it thinks about it. At our most primordial level, that's who we are as individuals in relationship with other individuals. And oftentimes, for many people, the most significant relationship, of course, is the relationship with their spouse. So that's why I'm excited to talk about this.

And it can be difficult, it can be challenging to talk about conflict in marriages, conflict between men and women. These are, unfortunately or fortunately, evergreen topics, right? I think it's just baked into who we are as humans. And so we wanted to, you know, along with the Old Testament, sort of dive right in to these topics.

Jennifer Thomas (03:06)

Yeah.

Yeah, and gender is obviously important to us as Latter-day Saints. And it's something that is at the core of our theology in ways that it isn't for other people. And if we're not willing to see that for what it is and figure out what are all of the really rich and good possibilities that flow out of that, we also need to acknowledge that those that binary has often been used in ways that ⁓ harms. But we can move beyond that.

Patrick Mason (03:19)

Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Thomas (03:40)

I think there's rich potential for us to evolve as a people and to evolve as individuals as we work on resolving the differences that are inherent in sort of male and female.

Patrick Mason (03:50)

Yeah, I have encountered some of that in my life, I will confess. So we brought on one of the best to help us talk about this and navigate this territory. Jen, I'll let you introduce her.

Jennifer Thomas (03:54)

A little bit. Yeah.

Yes,

absolutely. ⁓ Patrick and I are delighted to welcome Jennifer Finlayson-Fife today. She is an LDS relationship and sexuality coach with a PhD in counseling psychology from Boston College. Her work centers on empowering couples to create stronger and happier relationships through individuals and couples counseling and a series of online courses. She's a frequent guest on LDS themed podcasts on the subjects of sexuality, relationships, mental health, and faith.

She is also the creator and host of Room for Two, a popular coaching podcast. And we are so excited to have her here to talk with us about ⁓ male and female conflict.

Jennifer Thomas (04:41)

Welcome Jennifer, we are so grateful to have you with us today.

Jennifer FF (04:44)

Thanks for having me.

Jennifer Thomas (04:45)

We're starting off this year with some hard topics, but before we jump into a conversation about conflict as it's related to gender, we'd love to kind of have you start as we start all of which is with sharing with our listeners how you define peace.

Jennifer FF (05:01)

I would say at a minimum, it's an absence of war or hostilities. But I think it's also the presence of a kind of well-being or ease or tranquility in the relationship with others and in relationship with oneself. So it's not the absence of difference or even conflict. I mean, I know that sounds not very peaceful, but it's the absence of hatred.

Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Thomas (05:28)

So I'm 30 years into a marriage and I have to say that ease and tranquility are lovely things, right? They're sort of miraculous in a relationship when you can get to that point.

Jennifer FF (05:34)

Yeah, yeah, they are. And it's often forged. It's often developed over time.

Patrick Mason (05:43)

And it's never permanent, right?

Jennifer FF (05:45)

That's right. I know.

That's right. Yeah.

Patrick Mason (05:47)

There's always something. Well,

you know, so we're talking about creation and especially Adam and Eve. And, you know, it's so interesting that at the end of creation, one of the things we talked about in our last episode when we talked about creation was the way that the God creates by introducing difference. He distinguishes between, you know, land and water and

Jennifer FF (06:07)

Yeah.

Hmm.

Patrick Mason (06:12)

Between you know night and day and light and darkness and so forth and and the final act of creation is also an act of distinguishing of differentiation You know, it's the statement it's not good for for man to be alone when when Adam is there and so So when you think about this when you when you read this account of creation

Jennifer FF (06:22)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Patrick Mason (06:32)

You know, sometimes I hear it read and interpreted like, oh, women are like the supreme act of creation. mean, which I think is like there's a kind of pedestalizing that can happen there. But clearly there's this introduction of difference, of different kinds of humans, male and female, that are now going to walk in the garden together and then eventually fall together and forge lives together. So what does this teach you?

Jennifer FF (06:42)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Patrick Mason (06:58)

about, you know, what is this text? What do you pull out of this? As you think about relationships across difference, not just sameness.

Jennifer FF (07:06)

Yeah, well, I would say the way I used to think about this when I was young, and I think in not a healthy way, was that woman was there to sort of back up man, you know, like, so that, but he's the supreme creation and then he just needs a sidekick. ⁓ Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And that the good woman wants to be in that position. But as I've worked with lots of marriages and been married,

Patrick Mason (07:17)

Really.

Jennifer Thomas (07:18)

Mm-hmm.

Patrick Mason (07:24)

Batman and Robin type thing, right?

Jennifer Thomas (07:25)

Co-pilot.

Jennifer FF (07:33)

and I married myself and have really thought about this, that there is, the coming together of difference, of yin and yang in a way, of like a kind of complimentary energy or capacity is really essential to creation, to forging, to development. And I think,

We often want, I mean, even as a therapist, lot of the theories and things that I have read and thought about is the idea that if you are a good parent, this sounds like a little bit of a sidebar here, that there's, if you had good parents, you kind of step through life, you know, with ease. It's just a golden path is laid out and there isn't conflict because they were good parents. And I actually think, you know, that so much of life is coming into the lone and dreary world, the places of conflict between what our capacity is and what is. And that is in those spaces that we create, that we self-determine, that we forge capacity within ourselves. It's often when we're not getting what we want. And if you want to be immersed in an environment that will forge capacity, get married. Lock someone in, make a promise to love someone who does the world differently.

Jennifer Thomas (08:43)

Yeah. Yeah.

Jennifer FF (08:48)

And that's why you were attracted to them is because they were different than you. And it's in that coming together of those polarities of those differences that we have the ability, if we're willing to forge more capacity to love another soul. So I think it's, you know, deeply linked to creativity.

Jennifer Thomas (09:06)

So I love this idea of creativity and I want to kind of pose maybe an opposite that we get stuck in sometimes, which is the fact that we're in a situation of difference. We're in a marriage, we're sometimes attracted, like you said, to that person precisely because they were very different than we are. They maybe had complementary strengths to ours.

Jennifer FF (09:24)

Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Thomas (09:26)

Often that means they have complementary weaknesses and sometimes you don't find that out until you're into the marriage. And you're like, this, I, I laugh because we have my husband and I have twins and there's actually one that is very much more like him and one that is very much more like me. And they were the best marriage therapy we could have ever had because as I would watch them negotiate things, I'd be like, that thing you do is objectively irritating or

Jennifer FF (09:29)

Yes. Yes. You've opened all the presents and you're like, wait a minute.

Yeah.

Jennifer Thomas (09:53)

that thing I do is objectively problematic. Like I see how, how this is getting into problem, but it's sometimes we don't have that distance from our relationship. And one of the things that I'm really interested in having you share with us is how we can sometimes come to resent those differences and how, how can we actually, are the skills we need to obtain or the framing, mental framings that would help us get past resentment ⁓ when we are confronted with difference and, and again, sort of embrace those differences and learn from them.

Jennifer FF (09:55)

Yeah, right. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

So one of the things I teach in my marriage courses is that how we handle ourselves when we're not getting what we want determines the quality of the marriage. And a lot of people are like, wait a minute, can I have a refund? Like that's not, I'm here to get my spouse to be the right kind of spouse. So yeah, exactly. Exactly. And we want what we want. And I think that

Patrick Mason (10:37)

Hahaha

Jennifer Thomas (10:40)

I'm here to get what I want.

Jennifer FF (10:45)

culturally, both in the church at times and in the larger culture where we are offered the idea that if we've chosen the right person, we're going to get what we want, that they're going to come in and heal those places of disconnection and give us a sense of that mattering and, and, you know, that they'll solve our self doubt. certainly intimate relationships can offer some of that to us. But more often than not, it's often

like they're actually doing exactly what causes us pain, right? Like precisely, like, you know, I am somebody who wanted to marry somebody who was highly validating because my father was not. And I dated men that were highly validating. But then it was when I met my husband, who's quite introverted and doesn't, isn't excessive with compliments that I was like, that's the one for me. Okay. That's where I felt the attraction. Then, you know, a year into marriage, I'm like, why don't you tell me more what you love about me? Okay.

Anyway, that's, yeah, exactly. Why don't you get it? Anyway, so I think that very often we do these things. Some people say we actually marry our unfinished business.

Jennifer Thomas (11:41)

because I'm awesome.

Jennifer FF (11:52)

I think then when we have these narratives that if we marry the right person, they're going to make us happy. Then we're busy trying to get them to be the right spouse and resentful when they're not the right spouse. When that's not what we promised at all. We didn't promise, I will love you if you love me first and in the ways I want you to. Our actual promise was to love this person. Right? We promised God to bring our best selves to this marriage and to

to care about this other soul, even though they're different than us, even when they don't validate us or give us what we want. And so, you know, we have to change the framing because if we think that we're owed something, then we're going to be full of resentment and full of, you know, and busy going and telling all our friends, you know, why, why we got it so bad in this marriage and so on, and not actually focused on what is our part.

in creating a marriage. think of, you it's one thing to be married, it's another thing to create a marriage. And creating a marriage, a lot of us don't do. You know, a lot of us just build our resentments and self-justifications in the context of marriage, all the reasons we're justified in not loving, in not bringing our best selves. And so when we lead with that entitlement, then we indulge our worst selves. And so it's to challenge the frame of how we think about what a marriage is.

It's not that we're owed love, it's that we owe love, that we've promised to bring our best selves and let the marriage grow us up.

Patrick Mason (13:16)

wow, I like that distinction a lot. think it's really useful. And I'm thinking about even just in terms of the Adam and Eve story, would it be fair? Am I understanding correctly, or at least the way I'm thinking about it in this kind of textual way is that Adam and Eve are married in the garden, but they create a marriage once they leave, right? Once they fall and once they have to deal with sickness and death and kids, and that's when they create a marriage. Is that right?

Jennifer FF (13:32)

Yeah.

Jennifer Thomas (13:35)

Well, and-

Jennifer FF (13:39)

Yes. Yes.

Yeah, that's exactly how I think about it. Were you going to say something, Jennifer, to that?

Jennifer Thomas (13:46)

Well, I was just gonna say, I think it starts with that, they make a different decision at a point, there's an opportunity to make a choice, they make different ones, and that's when the creation of the marriage starts, is like, how are we gonna respond to the fact that this, we've resolved a situation or approached a situation really different.

Jennifer FF (13:57)

Yes.

Yes. So this is one of the things I also teach in my courses and Jared Halverson, I think is the one who maybe, maybe he took this from someone else, but the idea of creation, fall, atonement, very similar pattern that I see in love relationships. Uh, Terry Real a therapist talks about love without knowledge. think that is the creation phase, right? I love you, but I know nothing about you. feel connected and I feel a sense of communion and that's not to dismiss this phase. I think it's the inspiration for the marriage. think it really matters. have people that have said, I didn't feel attracted, but it felt like the practical choice. I think that's a harder marriage because you don't feel the kind of glue that comes with that initial phase. So that initial creation phase matters. But then you get married, the honey, the proverbial honeymoon ends at least, and you're like, wait, okay.

Why are you doing life the wrong way? you know, you, I thought you were here to love me and you're really here to ruin my life. So that's the fall. Yes. Yes. Yes. Exactly. And you're in the lone and dreary world and you're like, this is hard. Okay.

Jennifer Thomas (14:58)

You ate the apple. Why did you eat the apple? We weren't supposed to eat the apple.

Patrick Mason (15:06)

Or if you would have parented

Kane a little bit better.

Jennifer FF (15:09)

Yeah, exactly, exactly. It's all my fault somehow. Yeah, so I think we are in that disillusionment and we're up against adversity. And then what we do now, and it's not to minimize this or say if we're just strong, we're just going to step into loving. There is soul work that's being done in that disillusionment and recognizing what it means to live in the world, what it means to live in adversity that I thought I was going to be granted ease and comfort and love. And in fact, I'm in struggle and now I have to self-determine. And this is, know, in the book I wrote That We Might Have Joy I talk about these developmental phases because there's a certain point at which you can cling to Thanatos. This is the kind of resentful retreat. I'm not going to grow. I'm not going to change. I want the world to yield to me. I don't want to yield to the world.

And we can easily indulge that. That's what I think of as natural man. But when we do, it feels good at first because it justifies us and it makes us feel safer, but it interferes with creation. It interferes with our development. It interferes with our ability to love. But a lot of times we meet that disillusionment with that natural man self justification or with

I think when we test that enough and see it doesn't really work and it's increasing our misery, then we have a new choice to make, which is maybe I need to step in to the uncertainty. Maybe I need to face myself more, grow into a more loving person, confront the ways that I'm a part of the suffering in this marriage and self author or self determined. And it's often done. I mean, this is in the Adam and Eve story too, which I really love, which is that

They're up against choices that don't have any singular answer. I think a lot of times we want the idea that, well, if I'm doing God's will, it's just going to get laid out for me and then there's not any loss. And now I know I'm doing the right thing. And that's not what it is to be agents in a fallen world. I think the Adam and Eve story basically is showing us that we have to use our agency to assert choices that almost always have loss connected to them, right?

we're just kind of where can I stand? What do I think is the most right thing when there are competing goods and competing ills? And it's in that self authoring agency that we develop capacity, not for a world free of conflict, but a world in which we have more capacity to deal with the conflict that's in it. And I think that really is the essence of creating a marriage.

Jennifer Thomas (17:46)

So I'm so struck by that notion because as you're talking about that, I realize how much that pattern of two people being confronted with a choice and their competing choices, right? And it's not entirely clear. It's clear that whatever choice is made, there are gonna be significant consequences. That sort of feels like marriage, right? Like as you're trying to make decisions about work and balancing two careers or when to have children or how to spend your money, whatever it is.

Jennifer FF (17:56)

Hmm. Hmm.

Right.

Yes. Yeah.

Jennifer Thomas (18:15)

we're faced or whether it's tensions around faith or we're faced with these competing choices. We've got two people that might have very different views of what they want to do. And then there seems like there's two steps in that. The first step is figuring out how you're going to either make a decision together or how one person is going to accept and endorse the decision of the other. But I'm really interested in hearing more about you about how marriages can thrive.

Jennifer FF (18:19)

Yes.

Yeah.

Jennifer Thomas (18:43)

in the aftermath of that process, because sometimes things go really well, it's optimal, you make a choice, it plays out beautifully, and sometimes it doesn't. And how do you still maintain self-determination while also acknowledging, like, I think one of the easiest things to do in a marriage is to offload the bad choices onto your partner mentally, to be like, ⁓ this really was, they led us down this path, and now I'm trapped.

Jennifer FF (19:03)

Yeah, 100%.

Right.

Jennifer Thomas (19:09)

you know, so

Jennifer FF (19:09)

Right.

Jennifer Thomas (19:10)

I'm just interested in hearing hearing about that.

Jennifer FF (19:12)

Yeah, I have very little patience for that position in my office. Because yes, well, let me say the patient part of me first, which is that I understand that because it is hard to live in a world with so much agency and so much uncertainty. And so very often we are looking for a way out of that responsibility. That is, I want God to tell me, or I want to be superstitious and think,

Jennifer Thomas (19:16)

Yeah.

Patrick Mason (19:21)

Ha ha ha.

Jennifer Thomas (19:21)

Yeah.

Jennifer FF (19:39)

You know, I did some paragliding this summer when I was on a couples trip. And you know, when I walked up there, I was like, that pink parachute, that's mine. It's like I imprinted on it because my mind was telling me that's the safe one. I mean, it's so ridiculous, right? Okay. And I didn't want anybody to touch that parachute. That was my brain's way of trying to say, I'll survive if I'm in that one. Okay. So really irrational limbic stuff, but you know, we all do it because uncertainty is tough.

Jennifer Thomas (19:53)

That will keep you safe. Yeah.

Jennifer FF (20:08)

and the risk of living is tough. But it often then compromises us living in the world as it actually is. And so when we make choices as adults, we can't claim victimhood anymore. Now, if somebody, obviously, if somebody lies to us and deceives us, okay, yes, then we're making a decision on false, you know, premises. But in a marriage, if you choose to do what your spouse wants,

You are asserting a choice. Okay. And you are saying I will live in the consequences of this choice. If you don't feel comfortable with what your spouse wants, you owe it to the marriage and yourself to say, I'm not yet comfortable with that. Like the, and these are the reasons, but yes, it can be very easy to say, well, okay, I will, I will yield. I will do what you want. And if it goes well, fine. And if it doesn't, I'm holding you responsible, but that's a way of trying to get a loophole.

Jennifer Thomas (20:34)

That's a choice.

Jennifer FF (21:00)

in the actual reality of our agency. You know, and sometimes we use obedience in this way too. Well, I'll just do what someone else tells me I should do. And then that way I don't have to take responsibility. But we alone live in the consequences of our choices. And so it's very important for us to find, to not move forward with something we are not at peace with, because it, or at peace enough with, to stand behind. Because we do live in the consequences of our choices, whether or not we like that fact.

Patrick Mason (21:28)

Let me build on that and ask about Adam and Eve. And I'm sort of formulating this question while I ask it. So let me know if it doesn't make sense. I think one way to read Adam and Eve, especially with the benefit of Latter-day Saint scripture and our very different understanding of Eve and the choices that she makes, is that Eve is operating from a kind of growth mentality.

Jennifer FF (21:36)

Sure.

Mm-hmm.

Patrick Mason (21:51)

Right? She recognizes these are tough choices I've got to make, but I'm going to make this difficult thing. I'll accept the consequences because it will lead to growth. Whereas Adam, at least initially, is a little bit more in a kind of black and white sin and righteousness or sin and obedience and disobedience mindset. And in some ways, we hear these are different kinds of languages that we hear.

Jennifer FF (21:51)

Hmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Patrick Mason (22:15)

that the Latter-day Saints might hear. They might hear a little bit more of the obedience and disobedience language at church. And then if they go to therapy, or maybe in the broader culture, that they might hear less language of sin and obedience and more language of growth and development and things like this. And I think that can be hard sometimes for an individual or maybe a couple, right? Like Adam and Eve, they're wired a little bit differently, right?

Jennifer FF (22:21)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Right. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's right.

Patrick Mason (22:43)

So I'm not even sure what my question is here, but just thinking about these different languages and how we as individuals or as couples live in these different languages, do you see a kind of harmony in these languages or do you see them really sort of pointing to different aspects of human life?

Jennifer FF (22:45)

Yeah.

I would say yes to both of those options. let me think where to start here. So, you know, one of the things that I think is true is that developmentally we're in a path where when we start out, the framing of obedience of more black and white is important to our moral development. We need it. Like, you know, I remember with my kids were small, they don't understand

Patrick Mason (23:02)

Okay.

Jennifer FF (23:22)

all the risks and so giving them basic rules and framing helps them because it's at the level that they can understand. And it's also helping them build and internalize a framework for what the letter of the law is, so to speak, even the letter of the law in your own family, right? This is what we do. We don't do this. We do this. And, and as we develop in ideals, you know, when, we're in a situation that's free from abuse and, and we are in a neurotypical mind, we're able to,

keep growing and internalizing those structures and then to move with time from the letter of the law into more spirit of the law. That is to say, because these principles are so internalized, now we can think about what does it mean to do the right thing in this particular situation? Or what do I think is the best under, you know, the best choice in the complexity of this moment? That's really a marker of our development. And sometimes in a couple,

One person is, is a half step further ahead than their spouse in this way. So they may be more, one may be more inclined to kind of cling to an earlier framing and one may be leaning more into, nuance. And I don't mean that as a dismissal because sometimes people hear that as you're like throwing away the rules. You're not, you're just not so fear-driven or so,

so focused on kind of rules that are going to pay off in blessings and more taking deeper responsibility onto yourself. So sometimes there's a discrepancy in where a couple is and that can be a strain, but often it's a strain that can be productive in the couple because they're usually couples are pretty much in sync in their developmental, in their developmental level, even if they do the world in different ways. the second idea,

I would say that there's some of us that are much more cautious and we tend to marry people who are much more open. Open, guess is what I would say. And, you know, my husband and I are different. My husband's always thinking about what could go wrong. I'm always thinking about what could go right. And I would say that's a valuable tension. Okay. It doesn't mean that we're always just, thank you so much. I really appreciate that. It doesn't mean that I love it all the time when he's bringing up those things, but.

Jennifer Thomas (25:26)

Mm-hmm.

Jennifer FF (25:33)

But it's valuable to have two points of reference. If you can understand what your inclination is, what the gifts are in it, what are the liabilities in it, and use those to be wiser people, wiser parents, you know. And so because we marry opposites often, you may have different orientations to life that can inform and mitigate some of the rough edges of your own disposition.

Patrick Mason (25:57)

That's really helpful. Can I ask a question on behalf of the Adams? And I don't mean this in a male-female, right? But in terms of a kind of Adam orientation, I think an Adam might hear that and say, so you're saying that I'm at a lesser level of moral development because I believe in sin or because I believe in righteousness or obedience.

Jennifer FF (26:02)

Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Sure.

Patrick Mason (26:20)

And you know, and I know you just said like we're not throwing out sin or like anything goes but talk to the Adams of the world and and maybe who again might be female and How do because one of the things I always wrestle with is is how to how to think about these different stages of moral development without making it sound like people who still believe in rules are Living some kind of like lesser unenlightened existence

Jennifer FF (26:30)

Yeah. All right.

Yeah,

definitely. It's not the belief in rules because we definitely need rules. It's not the belief in sin because sin is real. It's more about our orientation to personal responsibility. I would say that's the measure. Because I think when we, like, what is driving the decision?

Is it the idea I need to do this so that I get the blessings? Is it more of a transactional idea or is it more in a developed way? Cause even a self-authoring position to say, I really believe this is right. And I really believe yielding to it is important. And my conscience says I must do it. Okay. That's still a personal responsibility that to, to, uh, to the naked eye could look just like obedience, but in fact is coming from a place of

of integrity and personal decision making. I've told this story before, when I was, right after I had my second child and I'd just finished my PhD, my husband was laid off from work, well, actually, slightly before I had finished. And so we both went into the job market at that point. And I was offered a job that I would have loved to take. It was just like a gift of a possibility.

And my professors were like, wow, it's amazing that you've been offered that. Like, obviously you're going to take it, right? And, and, and I was in a Adam and Eve kind of like an Eve moment of like, there's two things that I really want and they don't go together. I want to be the one that's home with my kids and I really want this job. And so I had to discern and figure out where can I stand? What can I feel good about? What do I respect?

Jennifer Thomas (28:16)

Mm-hmm.

Jennifer FF (28:27)

And so I ended up knowing that what I really wanted most was to be the one home with my kids. And, and so I chose it. And I think, you know, to, to maybe a lot of Latter-day Saints, it looked like I was obeying in a blind way. I don't know that anybody was thinking anything, but I'm just saying it could look like that. was just obeying in a blind way when in fact, this was really about a self authoring moment of this is really what I value most in this moment.

Patrick Mason (28:42)

you

Jennifer Thomas (28:42)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jennifer FF (28:53)

And there is loss in it, no question. But it's still of my choices, the one that I can stand behind best. So, and I think part of the reason I valued it in a way that was maybe different than some of my non-LDS colleagues is I'd grown up with a mom who was at home. I'd grown up valuing family and parenting and it was a part of my values. And so, but it wasn't just trying to have God be happy with me.

or to please my group and to prove to them I'm a good person, that wasn't a driver of the decision. And I think when we're younger in our development, those might be drivers. That doesn't make them wrong. It's just a marker of where we are in our growth.

Jennifer Thomas (29:32)

Okay, I love this. I want to ask kind of a hard question and like Patrick, I'm formulating it while I ask it, so patience. We've got two people. They're created, they're told to be one. They are told, they're not given, as far as we know, a lot of instruction as to what that looks like or how to actualize it, right? They're just be one. You're different, you're separate. Figure out how to go, you know, go from this separate state to one state.

Jennifer FF (29:37)

Mm hmm. Sure.

Jennifer Thomas (29:55)

And it feels like to me as I look at the story of Adam and Eve, we've got two people who, who the

their initial mistake was, was defying that actual commandment. So let me say what I mean. So we've got Adam who makes the right wrong choice, totally independently. He's like, somebody comes to him, says, I've got a choice instead of going to his spouse and saying, Hey, we've got it. We've been offered an option. He just is like, I'm going to make the right wrong choice. I'm gonna make it unilaterally. I'm going to force that choice essentially on my spouse. So then we've got the adversary who,

Jennifer FF (30:20)

Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Thomas (30:29)

goes to Eve and Eve makes the right wrong choice but she again makes it unilaterally. She does not go to Adam and say hey here are the pros and cons of this decision and that both of them I think are trying to do the right thing. I give them credit they are our parents they I think were both coming from the place of of goodness in their heart trying to honor the commandments that God had given them but in doing so they defied this commandment to be one.

Jennifer FF (30:32)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Thomas (30:55)

They like said, no, my agency is most important and I'm going to make a decision that forces an outcome on my spouse because it's the right outcome. I feel confident of that. ⁓ And so it feels to me like maybe that initial commandment, B1, is the one that was broken and that then launched conflict into the world.

Jennifer FF (30:55)

Mm.

Yeah.

Yeah, right. Right.

was the hardest.

Jennifer Thomas (31:16)

And it's the pattern that we want to try to grow from and grow beyond in our relationships, right? We want to not be so convinced of our own rightness that we're willing to make unilateral decisions. And we want to never make a decision that robs from another person their agency and sort of puts them in a forced position where they kind of have to align with us because the consequences are rough if they don't. And so can you share with us sort of...

Jennifer FF (31:16)

and

Yes, 100%. Right, definitely.

Jennifer Thomas (31:43)

How you feel like if I'm in a marriage and I both people are good people, both people are trying, but we've gotten into a pattern where we see our goodness and we're trying to force the other person to be good. How can we get out of that pattern and how how can we move beyond that into being one truly not being one in a forced way?

Jennifer FF (31:56)

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah,

yeah. Well, so again, I think it kind of goes back to this idea that we often have inherited that if we're doing the marriage right, there's an absence of conflict. Therefore, I've got to get you to do the right thing. Okay, that's what or for many people, I just am going to yield. I'm not going to bring up what I think. I'll just do what you want. You get so mad anyway, whatever. And so we do this kind of false piece.

by submitting, but actually not being one. And so when we value more that the conflict pressures our growth, then, so again, we think of one as like zero conflict as opposed to push yin and yang together and embrace the conflict until you can come up with something you both are at peace with, which is gonna mean.

Jennifer Thomas (32:31)

Mm-hmm.

Jennifer FF (32:52)

some frustrating conversations because you're be like, yeah, but what I mean is this. obviously if you were to understand what I mean, you would agree with me. And you know, we don't, our ego wants what it wants and it doesn't want to submit to this process of how do we actually create something that appeals to the best in each of our positions. That's a creative process that means submitting.

you know, laying down the ego for something better. means stepping into Eros. That is this place of place of growth and creativity and forging. And, it's not comfortable because again, the ego wants what it wants. And we want the idea that if you love me, you just give me what I want. And, or if you love God, you just do it the way that I think God wants you to do it.

Jennifer Thomas (33:34)

I, yeah.

Jennifer FF (33:36)

And you know, I have a lot of people that try to pull that off in, in marriage coaching is like, okay, well I, in my relationship with God know that you should do X, Y, Z. And it's like, no, that's, that's not the process. It's like, how did the two of you bring the best in, in your position to each other? How do you face what it requires is looking at where your spouse is right about where you're wrong. I mean, we don't like doing that. We like to ignore that part and get busy focused on where they're.

Jennifer Thomas (34:00)

Mm-hmm.

Jennifer FF (34:05)

they're wrong about where we're right, you know? And so I think it's valuing the process, seeing it as part of our growth helps tremendously because then we aren't resisting it like something's going wrong. And we think of it more as that we're at the gym and we're developing capacity in ourselves and in the marriage and forging a reality that we can both be at peace with. I mean, it's actually couples that don't have any conflict that are the most brittle.

And often where one just suddenly says I'm out because I've disappeared in this marriage. And it's very hard to keep those marriages together. People that are struggling, actually, they have more stick staying power because they're in active wrestle with one another.

Jennifer Thomas (34:44)

Well, and it's so interesting to me that you've got, I love this, that they're in active wrestle because to me that is the divine in that relationship, right? So we've got God that says be one and then we've got obviously the role of the adversary in this is to get them not even to do a wrong thing. Both of them were trying to do the right thing, but it's to get them to do it in a way that is separate from one another and to get them to do it in a way that potentially forces the other. ⁓

Jennifer FF (34:51)

and

Yes, steal the other's choice.

Jennifer Thomas (35:10)

it stills together's choice. so,

Jennifer FF (35:10)

Yeah.

Jennifer Thomas (35:12)

they obviously resolved that. They figured out, hey, we've learned from this. We're gonna go forth unified into this world. ⁓ But I just think there's such an important lesson for us there. Not that the conflict doesn't exist, but that particularly in a relationship, and I think in a covenant relationship, what the adversary is gonna try to do is divide. And sometimes you can even be divisive by asking people to do different right things.

Jennifer FF (35:16)

Mm.

Mm.

Jennifer Thomas (35:37)

It's the absence of their ability to rationalize that conflict and deal with it that is the sin maybe rather than the choices.

Jennifer FF (35:45)

I love that.

No, I love that. I think that's really right. The dividing and then and the self justification and justifying it in the frame of goodness or righteousness or whatever it is. And that that is the sin. I love that.

Patrick Mason (36:01)

Yeah, increasingly I'm thinking about sin. You know, I grew up thinking about sin and hearing about it defined as separation, right? Separation from God. The death is separation from our bodies. Sin is separation from God. And increasingly, I think that's not quite right. I get it. But actually that separation was necessary. know, it wasn't a sin.

Jennifer FF (36:09)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yes.

Patrick Mason (36:27)

For God to send me to earth or for me to be here on earth to be separated from them It's it's it's not a sin for me to be separate from or have a separate identity From from my wife or from any other human being to me. The heart of sin is not separation, it's alienation, right? It's it's it's it's a different quality of separation That involves some kind of enmity as you said some kind of hatred some kind of anger

Jennifer FF (36:29)

Right, right.

yeah.

Yeah, that's good. Yeah, think you're right. Yep.

Yes.

Patrick Mason (36:53)

So it's not the separation itself. That actually, it seems sin. God introduces separation into the world, but it's the quality of, and that's what we see in the Adam and Eve story, it seems to me, is that the devil wants them alienated from God and alienated from one another. And what actually, what they strive for is a kind of healthy differentiation and healthy separation.

Jennifer FF (36:57)

It's important. Yes, that's right.

Yeah. Yeah.

Jennifer Thomas (37:08)

Mm-hmm.

Jennifer FF (37:15)

Yeah,

no, 100%. I love that. That's right. Yep.

Patrick Mason (37:19)

So how does, how do you foster, mean, this is your entire life's work, but in like two minutes, right? How does conflict create the grounds for greater intimacy? Not as a problem to be solved, but actually as the space to create greater intimacy.

Jennifer FF (37:38)

Yeah. So there's a couple layers maybe in response to that. But one of the things I would say is that in marriage, which is a very particular kind of relationship, you know, this is not biological. It's chosen. And you're choosing someone that is a mystery to you is different from you. It is the fact that they do the world differently. That's actually compelling and compels our attraction because...

You know, human beings, we long to penetrate the mysteries of life, right? To pursue what we don't yet understand, to pursue God, to seek the higher part of us, right? So we're, that's a part of being human. And so when we fall in love, we see this person who's a mystery to us and in another way feels very familiar to us. think there's this duality often when we fall in love is that on the one hand, we feel we can really be ourselves and that they understand us, there's a certain resonance, and then there's something kind of out of reach for us. so, you know, again, sometimes we think of this as irrational, the attraction, but I think it's super rational. It's above rationality.

There's something that our soul is longing for in the other person, and I think there's a divine process at work in us that it's actually in communing with this difference that we become capable of forging something better together and even within ourselves. Right? Like I know in places of difference with my husband, where we've like stayed in it and we've stayed in conversation and we grow in our ability to understand and be understood that there is a deeper level of like both, I love who you are. I'm grateful for who you are. I'm grateful you didn't back down, like I know that sounds a little weird, but like honestly, sometimes like for my husband to stay steady around something and then I kind of face myself and grow up in it. I'm, truly grateful because it's a function of his trustworthiness to stay honest. And it helps me become better by him staying on. It's like if he were just to want my validation and sort of pretend he didn't think something or whatever. Yeah, that looks strong or loving, but it's actually weaker.

Jennifer Thomas (39:43)

Or want your happiness or yeah.

Jennifer FF (39:50)

And he's not being a bully or anything. He's just holding his own, but in a way that actually helps me grow up and become a better version of myself, not more like him, but a better version of who I am. I think that helps us find the peace that we talked about in the beginning, which is peace within ourselves, deeper peace within ourselves, because we have an honest witness, right? And peace in the relationship, not because we're more like each other. Maybe we've both chosen something we feel good enough about.

But we're not collapsing into the other. And so there's a deeper ease with each other. I can be myself and be truly open with you. That's what I think we long for. I think that's fundamental to intimate love. And it is a process that can really help us cultivate a deep friendship, a deep ease. I think it's one of the greatest gifts we can give to ourselves, to our children even is to forge that with another soul. And of course, it's challenging because you don't control the other person, you only control who you are in that. But if we lean into what marriage is asking from us, we can find, I think the joy and the ease that we're really longing for. But but we have to forge capacity to really find it.

Jennifer Thomas (41:09)

Okay, I love this. Patrick just asked you a question that drew out just this beautiful answer from you that was reflective of all of your experience ⁓ working in the intimate and the deeply relational interpersonal relationships that we have with spouses and other people. I'm gonna ask you to now go out of your traditional sphere of conversation and kind of take this a little bit macro. And Patrick framed

Jennifer FF (41:30)

Yeah.

Jennifer Thomas (41:34)

introduce this framing of alienation, which I really appreciate in the context of this question I'm about to ask that I see, part of the reason we do this podcast is because we see our, society descending into deeper conflict and, violence and tension that, some of the patterns of behavior of leaders and even citizens is sometimes and saints is inimical to peace.

And one of the patterns that I think we have seen emerging as we've continued to divide people into tribes is increasingly our society and leaders in our society are trying to polarize based on gender. So we're saying there should be enmity between men and women. One group is failing the other. One group has stepped out of their bounds. It's doing harm. Like the success of one means the failure of another, you know, in many ways.

Jennifer FF (42:07)

Yeah.

No.

Jennifer Thomas (42:21)

And that is starting to emerge ⁓ not just as chat, chat, chat, but actual people trying to either limit the rights or privileges or access of both genders, I think. So I'm just curious, how can you help, could you help our listeners apply some of your strategies or your framings to how we look at people?

Jennifer FF (42:33)

Yeah.

Jennifer Thomas (42:44)

generally in terms of other genders. How can we see them with more grace? How can we not fall into the trap of wanting to force them to into being something that reflects our needs or, ⁓ you know, accomplishes our aims?

Jennifer FF (42:47)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah. So it is a big question and I have a lot of thoughts about it. And just a reminder to listeners, this isn't my specialty, but I have a lot of feelings about it. I mean, I guess, I guess what I would say is that immature femininity and immature masculinity or immature yin and immature yang really on some level wants to control the other. It wants the other side to reinforce it. And,

Jennifer Thomas (43:00)

Big question, sorry.

Yeah.

Jennifer FF (43:25)

And I think we're in an information environment that regresses us, regresses us into our fear and our hostility and our ego protection. And one of the ways that I think our, that our information environment interferes, and I would say, I think there are people that are interested in dividing us because you can control when you can divide. And so as consumers of this, we must be very careful.

because it turns us against each other and even from our own integrity. And one of the ways that this is done is through appealing to our sense of victimhood, right? I am a victim of you. You have taken power from me.

think that our society, to create real peace, there must be justice in it, right? And so, women should be able to vote and own land and start a business and be able to do the same things that men can do. And the more we pressure the idea that one entity has taken agency from the other,

the more we turn against each other. And I think that I see in marriages, there's much more division and hostility around these issues because of what people have heard and the kind of feeling of self justification and self protection that a lot of these messages have given. So yes, we want a just world. Yes, we want a world in which people have the ability to create their lives in and not be constricted by

Jennifer Thomas (44:38)

Mm-hmm.

Jennifer FF (44:53)

unnecessarily constricted by others. But then beyond that, so much of it is being true to our gifts and true to the other, valuing what the other gender has to offer, valuing what we ourselves have to offer and knowing that our societies need both and that we claim and have our agency. Right? I think the idea that, you know, the other sex has to give me something for me to be okay.

is not, it's not a good message because it then puts us in conflict and alienates us from our own capacity to forge a difference and to create a better world and to claim our gifts and be true to the best in ourselves. So victimhood, be aware.

Jennifer Thomas (45:37)

One of the things

that just strikes me is this framing, particularly around traditional gender roles in marriage, like, you know, in saying, people have to either not be employed or, you know, or be the sole breadwinner or whatever it is. And there's layers of that. One of the things that I wish I could help people understand is that is going to be productive probably of less healthy marriages. That's actually not going to get us to the point.

Patrick Mason (45:38)

Mm.

Jennifer FF (45:51)

and

Jennifer Thomas (46:03)

we want to be at if we want help, be happy, happy relationships and families where, like you said, children feel at ease and feel like everyone is is able to grow and develop by creating these four structures and reverting to that actually will probably. I understand that maybe some people are even doing it out of goodwill. They want to protect the family they want to, you know, but it has the real potential to backfire because at root it is very similar to this this action that.

Jennifer FF (46:04)

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Right.

Jennifer Thomas (46:30)

Satan himself entered into the process, was like, you can get, like, this is a good thing, now I'm gonna help you force the other person to do it.

Jennifer FF (46:35)

Yes.

Right. mean, our whole faith is based on agency and choosing what we believe is good. you know, I talk about this in my women's course where it's not the particular choice that any of us make. It's whether or not we felt that we could own that choice and make that choice. And so it's one thing to feel like I must stay at home because otherwise I'm a sinner, you know, as a woman.

Jennifer Thomas (46:58)

Yeah,

yeah.

Jennifer FF (46:58)

versus

I choose this, this is what I feel best about. It has very different effects on one's soul and psyche and sense of self. And so to turn into a world that's of just ⁓ demanding virtue in a sense, quote unquote, that is not our faith. That is not what we stand for. And we can encourage us to live into our integrity and to do what we really believe is good. But that's different than forcing it.

Patrick Mason (47:24)

Yeah. Well, amazing. We could talk all day, but it was so appreciative, Jennifer, of you coming in and sharing this. And I'm glad that in the last 45 minutes, we solved all marital problems and gender relation problems in broader society. Exactly.

Jennifer FF (47:29)

Yeah.

Jennifer Thomas (47:40)

Yeah, just everybody listen to Jennifer and it will all be fixed.

Patrick Mason (47:45)

As we close, as we ask all of our guests, we'd love to hear you reflect on how and where you find peace.

Jennifer FF (47:51)

That's a great question. So I am, you know, I find peace in nature. You're just spending time in nature as much as I'm able to. I find peace in my marriage. mean, you sometimes I don't find peace there, but I really do feel so grateful for having this soul in my life who loves me and that we've created.

a life together and just that's that friendship and presence is is a deep place of peace for me. And I think I find peace in being in connection with other peaceful souls or souls that care about making peace in a world that feels really troubled. So, you know, sometimes just listening to people that are speaking truthfully and honestly and courageously, gives me courage. It it

It helps me, you know, to see the best in humanity calms my soul, right? So sometimes that's listening to wise others. It's sometimes listening to music and art that's been created for the sake of beauty and the reminder of the divine in all of us. That gives me peace too. So yeah.

Patrick Mason (49:00)

Those are amazing answers. Well, thank you again for being with us and sharing all of your hard-earned wisdom and I think some really great, not only concepts, but tools for us each to create and build a little bit more peace in our lives. So thank you very much.

Jennifer FF (49:15)

Yeah, thanks to both of you.

Jennifer Thomas (49:15)

Thank you, Jennifer.

Jennifer Thomas (49:16)

Thanks for listening to this episode of "Proclaim Peace." To hear more, you can subscribe on a podcast app of your choice or on YouTube. You can always find full show notes or transcriptions at proclaimpeace.org.

Patrick Mason (49:29)

"Proclaim Peace" is a partnership between MWEG and Waymakers. You can learn more about Waymakers at waymakers.us. Thanks again for listening and we’ll see you next time.