Proclaim Peace Bonus Episode // Part 3: Paul Lambert on When Conflict Comes to Your Doorstep

For this 3 part bonus mini series, hosts Jennifer Thomas and Patrick Mason engage in a thoughtful conversation with Paul Lambert from the Wheatley Institute. Together, they explore the complex emotions and tensions that members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints may experience when feeling attacked or judged. The discussion highlights three common responses: retreating inward, trying to correct misunderstandings, and defending one's beliefs. Paul offers insights on how grounding oneself in the teachings of Jesus Christ can lead to unexpected, outward-focused actions that promote peace and understanding. 

[00:00:26] Religious pluralism in society.

[00:06:01] The importance of religion.

[00:07:34] Peacemakers in a divided world.

[00:10:54] Public benefits of living faith.

[00:15:25] Principles for harmony and respect.

[00:17:02] Living faith publicly on social media.

[00:20:12] Christ's example of invited discourse.

[00:26:58] Faith and compassion in relationship.

[00:27:40] Building non-contentious settings.

[00:32:38] Spiritual identity over political identity.

[00:35:17] Interfaith work's significance.

[00:39:17] Faith as the first principle.

[00:42:44] Interfaith engagement for flourishing society.

[00:45:41] Peace through communion with God.

TRANSCRIPT:

(00:03-00:05) Jennifer Thomas: Welcome to the Proclaim Peace Podcast. I'm Jennifer Thomas.(00:06-00:12) Patrick Mason: And I'm Patrick Mason. And this is the podcast where we apply principles of the gospel and read the Book of Mormon to become better peacemakers.

(00:15-01:30) Jennifer Thomas: Okay, friends, this is round three and the final episode of our sort of set of podcasts that we're hoping to help us meet the moment right now. And this final conversation is with our friend Paul Lambert at the Wheatley Institute, and we invited him in to talk with us a little bit about the tension that maybe many of us as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are feeling right now when you're under attack. sometimes the inclination is to pivot inward, to kind of lock yourself off from the world and retreat into your people. And also when you're feeling judged, the inclination is to try to set the record straight. And then finally, when you believe very firmly that what you, your religious position is correct and people are like talking about it in ways that are manifestly incorrect, there's a strong desire to try to correct the narrative. So those are three tensions that many of us are feeling right now following the violence in Michigan. And we invited Paul to kind of talk to us about how intuitively the way we feel in the moment might not actually be our best response. And so he has offered us a really wise conversation about how grounding ourselves in the gospel of Jesus Christ can lead us to act in unexpected ways and to pivot ourselves outward towards God's children.

(01:30-03:50) Patrick Mason: Yeah. Yeah, I'm really looking forward to this conversation because it's, I think, especially at times when we feel besieged or feel threatened and under attack, that we become sort of keenly aware of our minority status in a diverse society. I mean, I think we kind of know that all the time as Latter-day Saints, but sometimes It feels more pointed than others. And so I think it's really useful in terms of our practices of peacemaking to think about what does it mean to be members of a faith in a world full of people of other faiths and people who disagree with certain tenets of our faith, and just to wrestle with some of the realities around that. So I'm really glad that Paul is with us. So let me introduce Paul, and then we'll bring him on to share with us. So Paul Lambert is the Religion Initiative Director at the Wheatley Institute at Brigham Young University. And so he, in that role, he works as a leading expert nationally on religious pluralism in society, including the role of pluralism in economics and business. And I think that's one of the really interesting places where he's worked. He's worked with a number of different businesses, big businesses like American Airlines and Accenture and Dell, and others to help them think about how religious pluralism can be a plus in the way that they do business and in the way that they deal and handle things with their employees and customers and others. He has a fascinating career. He's worked before that at Georgetown University, at the National Defense University. And so he just brings a ton of experience to this topic and to thinking about the role of religion and especially our role as Latter-day Saints in the public square. So we're grateful to have Paul Lambert with us today. All right, so Paul, welcome to the Proclaimed Peace podcast. Thank you, happy to be here. Great, thanks. Well, let's start maybe just by getting to know you a little bit better beyond just your formal bio that we just read. And I wonder if you could tell us a little bit about what motivates you. So a little bit about the what in terms of what you do and what you've dedicated your life to in terms of studying and helping to understand, but maybe even more so the why behind it. What motivates you? Where do you find purpose and meaning in the kind of work that you do?

(03:57-06:00) Paul Lambert: program here, Initiative at Wheatley. Our goal is to help people understand why religion matters, why it matters in society, and not just our own faith, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but broadly. Why does religion, any religion, what benefit does it bring to society, and why is it important for us to create space for religions to thrive and for religious people to thrive and live according to their sincerely held beliefs? So that's the what, generally speaking, and we go about that in a number of different ways that we can certainly get into if that's of interest in our conversation today. As far as the why, for me personally, faith has always been a really important part of my life from when I was a kid. I didn't necessarily in my professional career set out to say, I want to help people understand why religion matters, but what happened to me… I mean, most kids grow up with, you know, wanting to do that when they grow up. Yeah, yeah. What happened to me is I entered the workforce. And what I entered, by the way, it was not, it had nothing to do with religion. So my first job was working with people from about 75 different countries around issues around national security or economics or politics, governance, things like this. What I realized was that religion has to do with everything. It may not be, you know, in the description, but it's everywhere because I'm a human being and other people are human beings. And they have beliefs. And I quickly, I mean, this is a huge amount of time and thinking in my life condensed down to a few sentences, but I quickly realized, boy, beliefs and convictions and commitments matter hugely. And then following other people helped me understand why that matters so much and that allowing people to live according to those things have such deep impact. So, In short, Patrick, to answer your question, I do this because I believe that religion truly matters. I believe that my faith matters in my own well-being. I believe the faith of someone else matters in their own well-being. And only when we're able to live that truly are we going to be able to flourish fully. So that's, in short, the why of why I'm excited about what I do every day.

(06:01-06:52) Patrick Mason: I love that. And I couldn't agree more. I mean, in the sense that religion sort of pervades everything. Now, some people would see that as a problem that needs to be solved. But I think, at least for those of us on this call, probably for most of our listeners, they see that as a feature, not a bug. And let me ask a follow-up question, because you talked about, I mean, you know, now you work at BYU for the Wheatley Institute, and so obviously it is the school of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and you're a member of that church as well. Can you talk a little bit about what you think the role of this particular church is? It's less than 2% of the US population, far less than that in terms of the global population. What is the role of a relatively small but not insignificant religious minority community to these bigger questions of the role of religion in public life?

(06:53-07:52) Paul Lambert: Yeah, so my short answer, and I'm not trying to be cute with this, I mean, I believe this. I think our role is to be as faithful as we can in being disciples of Jesus Christ. I think that's the only way that we end up getting to, again, what we're going to get to in this conversation, I'm sure, which is, what is our role when we're talking macro level in the country, in the world, what is our role as a church, as a people? I think what it boils down to is being a disciple of Jesus Christ day to day. Now, going more broadly to where I think your question was focused, Patrick, I think we have a unique opportunity right now because of our history, because of our teachings, because of what we believe. to be tremendous peacemakers in a time of division. I think we're uniquely called as covenant members of the church, as covenant members of Christ's church, to be peacemakers, to follow his counsel, and specifically to follow the counsel of our prophet and prophets in being peacemakers and unifiers and influences for good in a world that's really struggling right now.

(07:52-10:01) Jennifer Thomas: So I just want to kind of add to this little part of the conversation quickly and say that I served a mission in Rome, Italy, and I've spent most of my adult life living in just outside of a major metropolis in New England. And it hasn't been my lived experience that people were super eager. hear about my faith or that they thought that I had everything to add. But one of the things that has been so extraordinary, I have to just say extraordinary, almost miraculous in terms of this work with MWAG is that I think our organization emerged just as a lot of foundations, a lot of organizations working in the area of building democracy, peace building, were recognizing exactly what you said at the beginning of this call, Paul, that they had overcorrected, that they had assumed that religion didn't matter, that they had assumed that it was something that needed, there was a problem that kind of needed to be taken out of the equation. And they have sort of slowly come to the realization that, in fact, the opposite is true. that at the very least, they need to be aware of the fact that it's a driving force in a lot of people's lives and understand that and figure out that it's a motivating factor for them. But I think more importantly, there seems to be this universal realization that faith has something distinct to add to the conversation, like in positive affirming development, developing the kind of people that we need to live in our society way. And that has been such an affirming and lovely experience for me, to literally not have had one door slammed in my face during this work. But it's been the exact opposite. It's been, we are really interested in talking to people of faith. And I would also share with everyone who's listening to us, there's been an overwhelming interest and affirmation in talking to people of our faith. they see that there is something that we have unique to contribute, and they want to be in dialogue with us. Does it mean they always want to do everything we say or that they want to live a world completely constructed by us? No, but that wouldn't be fair anyway. But they do feel like we have something to add. And I just wanted to put that pin in that, that I think there has been a positive shift. I think we sort of tend to think of ourselves in the defensive, but I think there's been a really positive shift of people wanting to contribute, wanting faith to contribute.

(10:02-12:09) Paul Lambert: And I'll add to that, Jen, I think it's such an important point. One of the things that we try and emphasize through our work, through our research, and through our speaking and writing and so on, our scholarship is, for a lot of us, even believers, oftentimes in the United States, and I'm oversimplifying here for point's sake, but oftentimes the attitude towards religion is, Yeah, it's really important to me personally and my family. And I recognize the need for a society to kind of throw me a bone, let me do my thing. And we recognize the need for that. And we recognize the need not only for me as an individual to have that ability or that right, but we also recognize it for others, right? I'm going to throw you a bone and think that's important. You do your thing. Where I think we often don't go far, where we stop there, and where the next dot that we haven't connected is, me being able to live my faith faithfully and you being able to live your faith faithfully, whatever it is, is not just about the individual benefits that come, but there's a tremendous public benefit that comes as well. Now, that doesn't mean that everyone needs to be my faith or everyone needs to be your faith. But what it means is there's a tremendous positive public benefit to all people within the society when people are able to live true to their faith commitments. And that benefits all people. And again, that doesn't mean that we all need to be this, that or the other. It absolutely leaves room for people that are of lots of different faiths and of no faith. But to say that religion doesn't have a role is actually undermining a huge amount of public benefits. And you might say, well, that's real fresh coming from you, Paul. You're a believer. But yes, I am. But this also comes from social scientists and other students of society that have acknowledged this as well. Just point to two that actually see themselves as atheists, Jonathan Rauch and Jonathan Haidt both point to the importance of religion, and the term that Jonathan Rauch uses I really like is that religion is a load-bearing wall in society. And I like that idea, and it is. It absolutely is a load-bearing wall. So we need to recognize first the individual benefit, but we also need to recognize the public benefit that religion and lived religion brings to a flourishing society.

(12:10-13:30) Jennifer Thomas: Okay, so can I ask you a hard question? So we're in a moment where I agree with everything you've just said, Patrick does, like we hope for the best, this feels really true macro in the macro sense. But as a faith, we're having this conversation as sort of a special episode of our podcast, because members of our faith, maybe have not in the last couple of weeks had that very specific experience. right? They're not necessarily feeling. We've had a local act of targeted violence, and I want to emphasize that it's local, but then there was an online sort of onslaught after that, that I think a lot of Latter-day Saints realized that in spite of our constant affirmation and our attempt to show the world that we are believing Christians and disciples of Jesus Christ, that other people were drawing that circle in a way that we were outside of the circle, right? And that's super distressing. I think it's distressing for me. So I've seen a lot of people online pushing back on that. They've been doing what we sort of do as Latter-day Saints, bearing testimony, saying, no, no, no, this is who I am. But I'm wondering if you could share with us kind of from your experience, is that that's not wrong, but is it the only way that we should kind of affirm our Christianity or are there better or more important ways in a moment of crisis when we can sort of help other people see our worth, you know, or at least let us have space at the table?

(13:30-16:09) Paul Lambert: No, it's a great question, Jen, and I certainly don't claim to have the full or perfect answer here, but I'll share a couple of thoughts. It is totally natural when you feel accused or you feel pushed out, othered, it's totally natural for us to say, well, no, you're missing this, or let me correct you on this or that. Let me give you an example that's outside of this context, but I think that helps us understand an application in the context. In my work, Part of my expertise is the role that religious pluralism plays in economic contexts and in business in particular. And a lot of the speaking that I do and a lot of the teaching that I do is in those contexts, in business contexts, and why a big company like American Airlines, for example, would care about religious pluralism and the religious diversity within their ranks and why that would have positive benefits. Anyway, so I talk about all this, and often I'm talking to young students about how can they build these kind of environments where they can be true to who they are as a person of faith. And a question I often get is, well, how do I do that? What's the best place to start? If I'm moving into a new job, what's the best place to start in helping create a space where I can be true as a disciple of Jesus Christ in my faith? And the answer is to create a space for others to feel that they can be who they are. As they recognize the respect and honor and love that we express, they will recognize the need to create an environment where all can be true to who they are. Now, that doesn't feel very satisfying when you're the othered one. But I think if you think through division and you think about what it means to put your dukes up or whatever terminology you want to use, if you take that to its ultimate conclusion, it's not leading to harmony. If I'm fighting against you because you have a misperception of me, if I'm fighting back, that's not going to get us. Division doesn't get us to harmony. It never will. There are principles that were taught in the gospel of Jesus Christ that we've been taught, especially lately by prophets of God, that get us to a place of pluralism and harmony. And that comes through principles like showing respect, honoring agency, through empowering, through respecting. Yes, standing your ground on things that you know to be true, but doing so with love and respect. And so I think these are the principles, and we should get down into the nitty gritty on this because it's easy to say these things, but these are the principles that lead to the outcomes that we actually desire. Fighting back and forth, that does not, you know, President Nelson tells us, anger never persuades, right? Those are not the outcomes that come from getting in defensive or aggressive positions.

(16:09-17:02) Jennifer Thomas: I'll say I've seen one masterful conversation online about this, and I should have saved it. It just randomly got put in my feed. But a Latter-day Saint was like, OK, so I see that you think I'm not a Latter-day Saint. Can you share with me what you believe are visible manifestations, essentially, that someone's living a Christian life? And the person listed them, and the Latter-day Saint was like, completely agree about that. And what about this? And then the other person was like, I completely agree about that. And then in the end, all the Latter-day Saint person did was say, I think we can agree on what living a Christian life looks like, and that we're both committed to doing that. And they sort of took it out of the realm of sectarian arguing about, you know, the nature of God and whatever. And I just watched all of these other comments be like, okay, well that and literally saying things like, well, that person sounds Christian to me, you know, and it just worked because it wasn't an argument. It was like, what do we both share?

(17:02-17:34) Paul Lambert: Yeah. And when I think of the most Christian people I know or the people that I want to emulate, I don't hold any of them up on that pedestal because someone told me that I should. I hold them on that pedestal because of how they live. I respect them the way I do because I see the things that they say. I see the ways that they act. That's why I want to emulate them, not because someone said, you should emulate them because they're good people. We're attracted to the way people live, their acts. Those are the things that move us. And I think the same is true in this larger conversation as well.

(17:36-18:28) Patrick Mason: You invited us to dig down into the weeds a little bit. So let me do that. So let me play devil's advocate just a little bit. So if you've invited me to live my life, live my faith in public, including on social media. And so say I'm a person who genuinely believes that Latter-day Saints believe wrongly. right? That they have fundamentally misguided ideas about who God is, about who Jesus is, about how salvation works. And they might be very nice people, right? But ethics doesn't save you. Niceness doesn't save you. That in order to be saved, you have to have a proper understanding of and belief in the true God. So isn't it an act of charity and love for me to tell my Latter-day Saint neighbor that? Or the neighbors that I haven't met, but which are online, right?

(18:28-18:32) Jennifer Thomas: Before you answer that, Paul, I have to tell you Patrick's hurting my feelings.

(18:32-18:54) Patrick Mason: So isn't that ministry to people who believe wrongly and therefore put their souls in peril? Even at a time where I understand that they're hurting and it's a tough week for them, but still they need to know that it's not good enough just to be nice, but that they have to believe correctly. So is there a role for that in public space?

(18:55-22:12) Paul Lambert: So look, if I had someone that I have a relationship with and comes to me with sincerity and love and invites me to believe a different way, that's okay. And in fact, if what you've said is true, the context that you've, the scenario that you've painted here, Patrick, if someone comes to me and invites me with love because they sincerely believe what they believe, I actually find that to be quite flattering, that they would have enough respect and love for me to invite me to do and live and act in a way that they believe is truly true. Isn't that exactly why we do what we do? Isn't that exactly why we go on a mission? Why we carry the commission of Jesus Christ? I mean, we are doing that very thing and bless them for being true to their to their convictions and their desires to spread the true gospel in their mind. Does that mean that I have to accept that invitation? No, I hope I recognize it for the love that it's coming with. So that doesn't offend me, I guess is the short answer. In fact, I'm honored by it. And I have had wonderful friends or colleagues Maybe not the exact way that you said that, Patrick, but approach me and I guess some people could say challenge certain beliefs, but have a conversation about, hey, I think I'm right on this. What do you think about this, Paul? And have those kinds of conversations. So that's one thing. The second thing is, President Nelson said this, I'm not quoting him perfectly, but he says he has this beautiful thing that he says in his Peacemakers Needed talk. Differences of opinion are part of life and differences of conviction are part of life too. I think we need to have the expectation that we're not always going to agree, even on the most important, even on the most personal, down-to-the-heart type of things. And that is okay. The way that we disagree is what's important. And so what does that look like? And the last point I'll make on this is, look at Christ. If there were ever someone that walked the earth that had complete control over truth, that knew, I mean, I might think I know what's right and wrong, but compared to Christ, I don't, right? I'm a fool compared to the Son of God. The Son of God walked the earth and he knew down to the millimeter exactly how right or wrong someone was, and he knew that he was right in every circumstance. Did he ever shame us? And I say us as the human family, as children of God. Did he ever force anything? He invited. Now, there were times that, you know, everyone's probably thinking, what about the time that he flipped tables? Sure, there were times when he felt called upon or the Spirit moved him to be more aggressive in one circumstance or another. But Christ's ministry is full of inviting, even from the one that knows better than anyone else. And it couldn't have been tempting for the Son of God to say, hey, guess what? I'm the Son of God. you're wrong and you're 53% wrong because I know and I, you know, no. He said, I love you. Please follow me. And not everyone did. And when they didn't, he didn't destroy them. You know, I think there's so much to learn from Christ's example here.

(22:12-23:09) Jennifer Thomas: So I'm going to ask both of you, because I think you're both better at this than I did. Patrick hurt my feelings because I mean, he wasn't intending to. But I reacted viscerally inside my heart the way I feel when people have said those words to me, because they have, right? I completely agree, Paul, with everything you've said. Do you either of you have any strategies for members of church in the moment that can just slow things down? We're not all perfectly ready to respond. You know, what are the ways that we can buy ourselves time or retain our integrity and our wholeness about what we deeply value without going on the offensive or without getting hurt, which I think are two extremes that both Either going on the offensive hard or just retreating into, oh, you just hurt me so badly, I don't like you anymore. Neither of those allow us to be peacemakers or allow us to accurately represent the Savior in that relationship. So I'd love to hear from both of you. What are some strategies for that, for members of church in the moment like this?

(23:09-25:22) Patrick Mason: What I would say is that when I was playing devil's advocate, I was trying to be the best devil I could. And I'm not sure that's always true on social media, right? Yeah. And I don't think those intentions are always coming purely out of a space of generosity and deep charity and so forth. I think it's about winning and proving people wrong. So I really liked what Paul said about the relationality, right? It's very different for somebody who runs some kind of anti-Mormon ministry and uses an online platform and then seeks to get more followers and more views because Mormonism is in the news, right? Now, I don't know what's actually in their heart, and I don't want to question some level of sincerity, but still, there's something a little bit, I think, distasteful about capitalizing on other people's tragedy and pain in order to advance your own ends, no matter how sincere they are. I think that's very different than a friend who genuinely and sincerely believes differently. And we all have those friends, right? They go to other churches, and they think we're a little wrong, and we think they're a little, you know. I could be more right on some things, but in relationship, they would never do that this week, right? I mean, we can have spirited theological disagreements, right? I have those. I mean, one of my closest friends here is a very, very sincere Catholic. We've spent hours and hours and hours in really fun and productive and sometimes spirited disagreements about our faith. What did he do on Sunday morning? He sent me a text just full of love and sorrow and like, I'm so sorry for what you and your community are going through. Those have been our texts this week. At some point, we'll get back to arguing, right? But in relationship, what mattered first was the relationship. And so he acted like a real Christian. And in fact, he witnessed for this. I mean, this goes back to your point earlier, Paul, right? His sympathy and compassion towards me was the best witness of how deeply his Christian faith has sunk into his heart, rather than saying, but what does Aquinas say this week? This week, I didn't need to know what Aquinas thinks about the Trinity.

(25:23-25:45) Jennifer Thomas: So my takeaway from Patrick is that as a person, I need to calibrate the importance of the relationship in order to calibrate my reaction. So if, if it is someone who is of no relationship to me, who doesn't exist in my world, and is just online, I need to just maybe detach from that and not let it have a profound and deep effect on me. And I need to pivot more towards personal relationships.

(25:45-29:46) Paul Lambert: So one, I want to acknowledge, just like you just did, Patrick, since Sunday, Sunday morning at the news of President Nelson's passing, I started getting a bunch of texts early in the morning before the Michigan thing happened of people just expressing their love and sadness for President Nelson from other faiths. And then when Michigan happened, they started pouring again. And I was amazed at how many, I mean, I should have written it down, how many faiths were represented from different Christian denominations to I have a friend in the Church of Scientology to I mean everything and the sincerest expressions to what you're saying Patrick and I'm obviously all of them think I'm wrong about my religious beliefs because they believe something else but in that moment they acted on the best of their faith, which is, I want to show love to this friend or this person that I know, Paul Lambert. Bless them for that. Bless them for living true to their convictions and their commitments as people of faith, whatever faith that is. So I want to call that out too. What a blessing that was to me and I think so many of us that receive that kind of outreach. The other thing I'll just add to this conversation to your great question, Jen, is I'm really inspired by a set of teachings by President Oaks. A number of years ago, speaking to young adults in the church, he kind of painted a similar picture in saying, when you're in a situation where whether it's kind of in the world where things are you know there's contention or difference you're up you feel like you're up against the wall you know if it's a micro situation where it's you and someone else or just kind of the world in general how do you respond and he gave five pieces of counsel and i'll just note a couple of them i think have something to say in this particular situation. One is, his first was avoid contentious situations. Now, the first way we might think about to interpret that is, you know, be like Joseph and run, right? And I think there are places where we should do that. You know, if someone is out there and they're only Their only intent is to tear me down or to tear a group down. I think not being part of it probably is the right answer. But I think the other way to interpret that or one other way is what can we do to build a non-contentious situation? a non-contentious setting. I think of President Nelson's wonderful example of being in the operating room that he gives in his Peacemakers Needed talk where the surgeon's so mad he throws a scalpel, goes in his arm, and he commits to himself right there and then. I will never create a space where this can happen, where people can feel so angry or frustrated. What are we doing to build non-contentious settings? And what are we doing to avoid settings that are already kind of the name of the game or the rules of the game are tearing people down? So I think that's one, and I think that helps us. I think another one is we're asked to hold the truth, even our outreach to others. We're asked to love. He specifically says, love others, find common ground. I think we can do that. And again, that doesn't mean that we're all going to agree. That doesn't mean that we're holding hands and singing Kumbaya. But it does mean that we can express love first and find ways that we can respect each other. And you gave that great example, Jen, of this interaction that you saw online. They found common ground on how I might define a disciple of Jesus Christ. Let's not worry about the labels at the moment. How would we define that? And the third thing I'll just point out here, and you gave five, I'm only giving three, was be a light. And I think this is a really wonderful litmus test. Is what I'm about to do, is how I'm about to respond, is this bringing light to the situation? Is this lifting? Is this acting as Christ would? Or am I doing something that's contributing to division? Or am I doing something that's actually meant to tear someone else down at my benefit? And I think if we think, am I being a light in how I contribute to this conversation or not contribute to this conversation? I think that's a really helpful litmus test to get us on the right track.

(29:46-31:13) Patrick Mason: I love those points. Those are really great. You know, one of my mantras that I try to repeat is, you know, more light, less heat. And I don't always live up to that, but at least aspirationally, that's what I want. This follows along the same line of questioning, but just to hear you think about it, you know, a very natural human thing when you've been attacked or people that you care about or your community has been attacked is to circle the wagons. In one of my books, I wrote about a fortress church, use this as an analogy of a fortress church. And there's a reason why people build fortresses, right? There's a reason why people circle the wagons, because sometimes those attacks are all too real, not just theological, not just words, but actual real attacks. attacks, where we all feel vulnerable and unsafe. So how do we know? When is the time to retreat into the fortress and to pull up the drawbridge? Do we ever pull up the drawbridge? And when is the time to lower the drawbridge and open the windows and keep the wagon train going? Not speaking for the Capital C Church, we have leaders to do that, but on an individual level, how I know when to protect myself and sort of look inward versus having this more open kind of outward orientation that you've been talking about?

(31:13-35:17) Paul Lambert: Yeah, it's a great question. And circling the wagons, I'll use that. In some ways, I think we absolutely should circle the wagons of gospel principles. So I think, to be clear, what I mean by this is, yeah, I think in times of where we feel unsettled or threatened, I think the number one thing we should do is go back to that center of what are the gospel principles. So yeah, let's circle those principle wagons. Obviously, the way that we often interpret circle the wagons is like protect ourselves from the outside. And that's obviously the way that you're using it in your question. But as you said that, my first thought was, well, yeah, there's so much strength in the gospel principles and the principles of the gospel of Jesus Christ. That is one thing we need to revert back to. And I think it's sometimes hard to do when we feel on the defensive or when we feel threatened because the human instincts come in. So while I don't think we should circle the wagons in the way that you asked it and put our dukes up, I do think we need to return back to center and say, calm it down or slow it down, as Jen said a minute ago, and what are the gospel principles that should be leading me here? So let me start there. Let me center myself first. But to answer the question how you asked it, Patrick, no. I think it's rare that we're being asked to circle the wagons and be in a defensive posture. That does not mean at all that we don't need to stand on truth and stand firm in our commitments to Jesus Christ and commitments to to our covenants and commitments to what we know to be true, as Christ did, while also reaching out with love, building connections, building coalitions, helping people understand that we love and respect them. I think more than ever now is the time to build networks of understanding. Let me use The language of an organization, I think, does this very well. There's an organization called One America Movement, and they work to try and fight against toxic polarization, as they put it. And the way they define the problem is they call it a spiritual problem. They say they think that toxic polarization is a spiritual problem at its heart. And that really resonates with me. And the reason I think that is, is that we're often putting something else ahead of our spiritual identity, or our identity as children of God, or our identity as disciples of Jesus Christ, or if we're a different religion, our identity as a Muslim, or a Jew, or whatever. And I think that can get us into trouble because when we feel… So if I put my identity as a member of X political party first, if someone is doing something to threaten that political party, all of a sudden I feel existentially threatened as well. If I see myself as a child of God first, as we've been counseled by President Nelson, this is going to sound… hyperbolic, but there's really nothing. If I see myself first as a child of God, there's really nothing on this earth that can threaten that identity, even the end of mortality. Because I know that my life goes beyond that and I have hope in what comes next. Now that's not to say that death and these kind of things aren't scary, and they are. But there is so much strength and perspective and confidence when we put that identity as a child of God, as a disciple of Christ first. And there is so much weakness and so much instability and so much fear when we put a different identity first. So that's where I think our headspace, that's where I think we need to be when we're feeling on the defensive or when we feel threatened or unsettled. That's where I think we need to return to. We need to keep going back to this and interpreting different ways. We need to circle those wagons, right? We are a human family. We are all children of God. And I think that can give us the insights and the help that we need in order to respond appropriately. That was a big, swervy line to answer your question, but I hope that made sense.

(35:17-38:14) Jennifer Thomas: I just want to say that I do quite a bit of interfaith work, but I also do a lot of work in spaces that are not faith-based at all, right? And one of the things that has been interesting to me, just kind of to affirm what you've just said, is that I've had in recent, particularly about the last nine months, but this year, Had a lot of people come up to me and sort of sidle up to me and as we're conversing sort of casually after conferences or after convenings, say, you know, I'm right now finding a lot of comfort in prayer. I haven't prayed in 20 years. I know that you've done this podcast about the Book of Mormon, and it was like, I listened to an episode, and it was clear that that book brings you a lot of peace. And I've sort of returned to trying to read scripture, or I'm meditating. But whatever it is, it's clear that something that I think sometimes as Latter-day Saints, it's easy for us to dismiss what you've just offered as kind of Sunday school answers. They're just like, pray, you know, read your scriptures, go to the temple. And I think it's because we have proximity that sort of can breed a little bit of, I don't want to say disdain because it's way too, but we just sort of don't see the familiarity, right? We're too familiar with that process because we've continued, if we're particular for active members of the church, to be immersed in that. And I'm just witnessing so many people in a period of kind of distress saying, oh, I need to go back to those first principles. I need to find my way back to sort of the practices that I was offered when I was younger or something that I see my neighbor doing. And it's been, for me, a real affirmation to not take for granted what I have and not to sort of just be, like, contemptuous. Oh, well, if I just, you know, work is burdensome. If I just prayed more, it would get easier. Well, guess what? If I just prayed more, it gets easier. And it's a little bit embarrassing that, you know, I could hear President Nelson in my ear saying, you have to have this personal relationship with God and you have to be spiritually resilient. And I believe that. But it's taken voices from outside reminding me of the preciousness of what I have to kind of really double down on that and say, no, no, no, that is what I need to do. Let me just ask you really quickly, I have one question that I would love to have you answer before you leave us, and that is you've done a ton of interfaith work. a really pivotal and important part of your life. And as you've just shared with us, it means you've got a lot of rich, rich relationships with people who think and believe differently than you do, which I think is not always true of Latter-day Saints, right? Depending on our work or where we live, we might not have that robust interaction. I would love to have you kind of share with us, do you believe that interfaith work is important to us as a people? Like, certainly people have something to teach us, but in a moment of difficulty and increasing potentially violence and What does interfaith work? How can it be protective of us, both in terms of physical but also spiritual protection? Is there something that this kind of work can give us that it can bless and add our lives?

(38:15-42:43) Paul Lambert: Thank you. Happy to answer that. But let me actually go back first and say, Jen, if your work, and I'm not surprised to hear this. One of the impacts of your work, as you've stated, is bringing back people back to the basic principles of seeking God in a number of different ways, whether that's praying or immersing ourselves in the scriptures. Let me just say on the behalf of so many, bless you and bless MWAG and bless you for doing that. Is there anything more important than to help people find their their God. And I'll just share in hopes that this was a major blessing to me, this realization in hopes that it will be to a listener here as well. It was a real aha moment as an adult when I realized that When we talk about faith being the first principle of the Gospel, it wasn't just because we number things, but that faith truly is the first principle of the Gospel because it is required everywhere. And the Gospel is everything, right? The Gospel encompasses everything that we will encounter in our mortal lives. And when I realized that faith is not just the first principle of the Gospel because it's a nice place to start, or it's the it's a good thing, but that I realized, no, faith is required of me in every context and that was a whole aha moment. And maybe the most helpful application here is I realized if faith is the first principle, that by definition will mean that life is going to be full of uncertainty, because faith is what you need in uncertainty. So I shouldn't be surprised, or I should think of uncertainty or difficulty or unknowing as an outlier, as if I'm doing something wrong, but I should actually see it as, well, this is actually baked into the plan. The plan of salvation is meant to include a lot of uncertainty. Otherwise, there would be no purpose to have faith as a first principle. So I hope that has been a huge blessing to me in all moments of my life, but particularly in moments of difficulty. where I've been able to say, okay, I'm not an outlier. It's not because I'm a bad person or it's not because other people are bad people. I'm supposed to face really difficult, uncertain situations. And that's why I was taught through Christ that faith in Him is the essential first principle. And if I start there, you know, that leads to other important things. So forgive the tangent, but I'm hopeful that that's helpful to others as much as it is to me. So to answer your question on on interfaith, and I'll add my perspective, and I'm sure that both of you have really wonderful things to say on this as well. I found that work, and I think some people might call it interfaith, some people might call it multi-faith, and I think that the difference there is multi-faith might feel like maybe emphasize the particularity of each faith. Interfaith isn't about boiling everything down or you know, lessening my convictions so that they're more like yours. Interfaith is about, actually, I think is about maintaining and celebrating particularity, recognizing that particularity matters. One of my favorite quotes from a friend who I think both of you know is Eboo Patel, who runs Interfaith America. He says that pluralism requires particularity. And I love that quote because Yeah, if we're not particular in our specific face, then there is no pluralism. What is pluralism if they're all the same? And we also know that sameness is not an option. It's not a reality, never will be. And so interfaith for me is, yes, it's finding common ground, It's also empowering us in our different faith commitments. Why? Because we know that people living their faith, back to where we started this whole conversation, people living their faith is going to make a better world. It's going to make a better world for the person that's living their faith. It's also going to make a better world for all of us. You know, my Muslim brothers and sisters living their faith faithfully is going to create a better community where I can live my faith faithfully. And I think we also recognize, I want and I need the right, the ability to worship, to believe what's most important to me. And if I want that, if I need that, which I think we would all say that we do, then I also recognize, if that's going to be true for me in a society where we are different, then that must mean that others need that same right. And that must mean that it's important for us to create an environment where people can flourish in that way. So is pluralism the end game for us when we're thinking about the plan of salvation?

(42:44-42:44) Jennifer Thomas: No.

(42:44-43:29) Paul Lambert: Is it a necessity for the reality in which the society we live in? Yes. And that's, I think, an important distinction. So interfaith work and pluralism work, I'd say, is not only important because it helps us, it's a necessity, I think, for a flourishing society. And the other thing that you got to in your question that I think is really important here, Jen, is I think, at least for me, it uplifts me. It teaches me. It helps me learn. It helps me be a better disciple of Jesus Christ. You know, one of the things I admire so much about my evangelical brothers and sisters is how they bring their faith into everything. They believe in Jesus. They believe that he applies everywhere. His teachings apply everywhere. And let me just share a quick anecdote that was so meaningful to me.

(43:29-43:29) Jennifer Thomas: I was

(43:29-45:05) Paul Lambert: A couple of years ago, I was on a call with two people. One was a Catholic, one was an Evangelical. And we all knew that about each other, we had a good relationship. So this was okay, how this happened. We were kind of the small talk that they needed to call, and the Catholic had mentioned, my father's not doing well. And he said, he kind of communicated that his father probably would be passing soon. And my evangelical friend, without skipping a beat, said, can we pray for your father right now? And of course we said yes. And we all bowed our heads on this Zoom call. And he said this most authentic prayer for my friend, asked for blessings on his father, asked for blessings on their family. And then we moved on with the call. And I thought, what a powerful thing to be in. What a powerful environment to be in where that can happen authentically, where we can engage across difference. We all believe different things. We are all different religions. We have different convictions. But how beautiful that we could share that moment together of, and to me, a manifestation of pure love. That was true religion. And that only came through us engaging with one another, engaging across our difference to find common ground, and to allow our light to shine through, even though we're different, even though we had different beliefs. So that is just one of the really powerful manifestations, I think, of interfaith or multifaith work and engaging across difference. And that manifestation is just a microcosm of, I think, the incredible light that can come through each of us as we engage in this kind of work authentically.

(45:05-45:41) Patrick Mason: That's fantastic. I love that. And I've had those kinds of moments. I'm sure Jen has. I mean, it is because of those relationships that we build over the years, right? That do bridge a lot of these differences and really provide the kind of thick webs that connect us as children of God. We sort of innately just recognize those commonalities. Well, Paul, this has been fantastic. We've really appreciated all your time and your insights. I want to ask you the question we ask all of our guests at the end of each episode. Where and how do you personally find peace in a world that has so much conflict in it?

(45:41-46:45) Paul Lambert: Yeah, thanks, Patrick. My answer will be a Sunday school answer. I found that in the moments of of joy that tempt me to be prideful, when I'm honored by something, by others, and in the moments of deep difficulty. The number one thing that brings me grounding and brings me confidence, especially in the difficult moments, is when I kneel down and commune with my Heavenly Father. And I ask questions like, do you accept my offering? Am I living okay? And by the way, sometimes the answer is, no, you're not doing well enough. But a lot of the time, most of the time, the feeling that comes through is, yes, I know that your offering is not perfect, it lacks, but I accept it. And And that brings me such peace is when I can commune in prayer and thought with Heavenly Father. To me, that's really the only place of true, stable, confidence-giving peace is as I seek Heavenly Father.

(46:49-47:08) Patrick Mason: Thanks everybody for listening today. We really appreciate it. We just want to invite you to subscribe to the podcast and also to rate and review it. We love hearing feedback from listeners, so please email us at podcast at mweg.org. We also want to invite you to think about ways that you can make peace in your life this week. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time.

(47:13-47:29) Jennifer Thomas: Thank you for listening to Proclaim Peace, a proud member of the Faith Matters Podcast Network. Faith Matters holds expansive conversations about the restored gospel to accompany individuals on their journey of faith. You can learn more about Faith Matters and check out our other shows at faithmatters.org.