"Proclaim Peace" Season 2, Episode 13 // True Peacemaking Needs Both Fire and Compassion: Lessons from Elijah and Elisha, With Sarah Perkins
- 6 days ago
- 30 min read
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Jen and Patrick are joined by Sarah Perkins to explore the profound ways stories shape our understanding of peace, justice, and reconciliation. They focus on the contrasting peacemaking styles of Old Testament prophets Elijah and Elisha. Sarah shares her journey as a writer, filmmaker, and peacemaker, emphasizing the power of faith, imagination, and human connection in transforming conflicts into moments of compassion.
Chapters
(00:00) Introduction: The biblical and modern models of peacemaking
(03:19) Elijah as a prophet of justice and the challenge of non-passive activism
(07:44) The importance of speaking truth without contempt or dehumanizing others
(11:27) How to be conflict-avoidant while still advocating for justice
(15:35) The differences between Elijah's fiery approach and Elisha's humble miracles
(20:14) The role of small acts of kindness in peacebuilding and social change
(25:05) Using stories like "They that be with us" to expand moral imagination
(32:10) Insights from international peacemaking efforts in Northern Ireland
(36:29) The power of storytelling, especially in faith contexts, to foster hope
Transcript
Patrick Mason (00:00)
Hi everyone and welcome to the "Proclaim Peace" podcast, where we discover stories of peacemaking through the lens of scriptures. This year we're talking about the Old Testament. And I'm Patrick Mason. I'm your co host. I'm here as always with my good friend Jen Thomas. Hi, Jen. Good morning.
Jennifer Thomas (00:15)
Good morning Patrick. And for those of us listening, I just muffed the introduction four times and Patrick had to take over. So that tells you how I'm doing today. But I'm here and showing up is 95% of what matters.
Patrick Mason (00:20)
Yeah. That is 100% true. That was the one thing my parents told me. That was like the one key to parenting. Just show up, right? So maybe that's the key to podcasting. Our wonderful producer, our long suffering producer Christine, may say there's a little more to it than that, but here we are. I'm glad we've shown up today for this conversation, Jen.
Jennifer Thomas (00:32)
I am too. And I think a little bit of the reason that I muddled is because it was just a really tender conversation. So we're really excited to share with you today. ⁓ we're gonna be talking a little bit about Elijah and Elisha, two very different prophets who ⁓ approach the world from very different lenses, even though they worked really well together. And ⁓ and we’re really excited to explore about the different ways that they allow us to think about peacemaking.
Patrick Mason (01:09)
Yeah, I think one of the challenges that that I've certainly had that I think a lot of people have when we when we talk about peacemaking is that we do have these like amazing models of incredible, like all-star world class peacemakers, the Martin Luther Kings, the Gandhis, the Nelson Mandelas, right, the Mother Teresa's, right? and it's like we love them, we love those stories, we're inspired by them, and it's like that is so far beyond what I can do. I will never have that much sizzle, right? I will never have that much courage. and so I like these stories because Elijah is sort of like that guy. I mean, he's like the prophet of prophets. He's like, you know, he's the one we're still waiting to come back, you know, all those kinds of things. We don't talk about Habakkuk that way, or you know, or or some of the others, or even Elisha.
Jennifer Thomas (01:36)
Yeah. Yeah. And one of the things I also really like about this story, a subtext that we don't talk about much in this conversation, but I'd love our for our readers to think about is the fact that both and I think sometimes we tend to think that there's one approach to peacemaking, there's one approach to righteousness, there's one approach to prophetic vision. And we usually tend to think of that one as the one that's maybe most reflective of our capabilities, personalities, and desires. And I think one of the things that I love about the balance of these two stories is that it reminds us as disciples, it reminds us as peacemakers that there are different God given talents that can be put to work in peacemaking, that it can be done in very different ways. And that God respects both of those paths. He uses both of those kind of characteristics to produce leaders for his people. And that we as disciples should not be disdainful of one or the other.
We shouldn't just be like, this person isn't doing it the way that I think it peacemaking the way that I think is more valuable or righteous.
Patrick Mason (02:54)
Exactly. So I think it should give us all courage, like the we whatever whatever gifts, whatever talents, whatever capabilities we have, whatever mantle we we have have carried, that that the the we can wrap it around our shoulders and and walk forward with the the the gifts and talents in the context that that God has called us to at this moment.
Jennifer Thomas (03:14)
Okay, and that is a beautiful introduction for our guest. ⁓ we are so excited to be joined today by Sarah Perkins. Sarah is absolutely one of those people who has used her gifts and her talents in remarkable ways to share a message of peace out into the world and to use sometimes some of her most really difficult and most painful experiences as a way to talk deeply about ⁓ how she is committed to transforming the world.
⁓ Sarah is a writer and a filmmaker who recently earned her PhD in English from Brandeis University. And she did that by creating a gorgeous film that I hope someday is much more publicly available. She, alongside her husband, is a co-author of the Book of Mormon storybook and the Bible storybook. And she, you can find her on Instagram at ForLittleSaints. She is one of my very favorite Instagram follows. I have a good friendship with her and have been so blessed as a colleague of her because she works, sort of oversees all of our peacemaking work at Mormon Women for Ethical Government and makes sure that we stay true to that principle in all that we do. We are so grateful to have her with us today to share her insights and and her real lasting and true hope for the world, which is one of the things that shines out in everything that she does.
Jennifer Thomas (04:26)
Welcome Sarah. We are so happy to have you with us today.
Sarah Perkins (04:29)
Thank you.
Jennifer Thomas (04:30)
We are gonna start the way we always do, which is asking you a question about how you define peace. And I know you've given probably a lot more thought to this than many of our guests, and so I'm really excited to hear what you have to say today.
Sarah Perkins (04:42)
Yeah, yeah, I've been thinking about this. I mean I obviously love Martin Luther King's. Peace is not the absence of conflict, but the presence of justice. But as I've been, my husband and I make movies about different peace stories and peacemaking stories, and as I've, we've been interviewing many, many people who have been involved in making peace in really entrenched conflicts, I think one thing I've been realizing is that peace is so fluid. Like it takes ongoing creativity and flexibility and adjustment and attentiveness. It's like a river in that sense, in that like you'll never step in the same piece twice, right? Like I think it's something that's yeah, this is always changing, always passed on to each new generation, and each new generation embodies it anew with different people, different understandings, different approaches, different hearts. Yeah, I think peace is always newly made is how I'll define it for today.
Patrick Mason (05:33)
I love that. I love that sense. It's organic, it's dynamic, it changes, in some ways it does what it needs to and goes where it needs to in the way that it is, that a river does. I like that a well I'm excited about ⁓ what we're gonna be talking about today. We're gonna we'll we'll talk about some of the the the the more famous stories from from the Old Testament, especially, you know, once we're kind of out of like the Moses period and and all of that and in terms of the Israelite prophets are gonna talk about Elijah and Elisha. ⁓ and no doubt we will mix the up those names. You know, why couldn't they have been like Fred and Tom or something like that? But so let's start with Elijah. Tell us a little bit more about how you think about him, his prophethood, his ministry, and also what does it have to do with peacemaking? I'm not sure that that's like the first association that the people have with Elijah.
Sarah Perkins (06:27)
Yeah, I mean he's like the prophet's prophet, right? Like he's the guy. ⁓ he like the sort of superstar prophet I feel like. You know, he's the guy who like totally calls down the fire in the priests of Bael, Baal? How do say that? And then he's like, the God was not in the whirlwind. Like these beautiful passages that are all like super, super flashy, right? And lots of like energy and dramatic forces behind them and around them. ⁓ some some violence for sure. Yeah.
Jennifer Thomas (06:57)
Some violence? Yeah. He's inflicting God's wrath unabashedly on people. Yeah.
Sarah Perkins (07:04)
Yeah, absolutely.
Patrick Mason (07:06)
Yeah, even though he's the still small voice guy, like he's not the still small voice.
Jennifer Thomas (07:08)
And yet I will slay you all. Yeah.
Sarah Perkins (07:12)
But also I think Elijah is, there's the widow Zarepeth, right? With with ⁓ and he heals her son and he provides for her when it seems like all of the miracles have run out when when, you know, the the water is dried up and the land is dry, that like God's miracles continue to provide for this family. but but he ⁓ I think he is associated with this really, really sort of big, very present, very powerful, just God.
Patrick Mason (07:17)
Right.
Sarah Perkins (07:37)
And I think that does feel a little bit like there's some tension when we're trying to talk about him as a peacemaker. But for me, I feel like so much of peace movements requires that I study to require some amount of speaking truth to power, of calling out injustice, of often dismantling systems, so that you can come up with newer, more fairer systems, more just systems.
And I think that's absolutely what we see Elisha doing all the time. If this this is unjust or or this system is oppressive or or you know, violent or immoral in some way. ⁓ and I think he was always, you know, very powerfully speaking speaking truth and and I think doing his best, right, to represent God's will in a more moral way of moving forward through and moving throughout the world.
Jennifer Thomas (08:21)
So I totally appreciate this because I completely agree that we can't just meet injustice with passivity or just with super smiley kindness. It doesn't work. And so much of what I think of disruptions to our peace are caused by systemic problems, right? We've set up systems that perpetuate injustice, perpetuate conflict, and those systems were set up in ways that benefit somebody. And so somebody's going to feel like a loser if they get dismantled. I would love to hear either experiences that you've had from people that you've studied or just your personal thoughts on how we can approach peace sort of in the Elijah way, which is like, I am I am going to move towards justice. I am going to accept that change needs to happen without allowing it to make us into, or or inhabit the characteristics that set up systemic injustice in the first place. Like so often it's like, okay, here's a wrong. I'm gonna right this wrong by creating another wrong. I guess I'm trying to figure out how do we directly fight wrongs, but do it in a way that doesn't just create …
Patrick Mason (09:29)
Yeah, and I'll piggyback off that because like sometimes we you know we have this phrase like speak truth to power, which seems, you know, that's a that seems like a great virtue, right? but and and it is, it's super important. But it also seems to like when you're doing that, you can act however you want. You can speak however you want, you can think about and treat the other person however you want, so long as you're speaking truth to power that excuses almost almost anything.
Jennifer Thomas (09:44)
Yeah. It could be a jerk.
Patrick Mason (09:56)
And in Elijah's case, he does like, you know, burn up lots of priests. Well, I guess the divine fire does, right? you know, and and stuff. So yeah, so just piggybacking off of Jen's question, how do we do that? but do it in a way that actually fosters peace rather than perpetuates a cycle of conflict.
Sarah Perkins (10:16)
Totally and yeah, I mean these are really big questions. I think for sure all the time I see people like justified to me what seems like obviously bad behavior with the I am speaking the truth and defending righteousness and I am being a peacemaker.
Patrick Mason (10:32)
Ha ha.
Jennifer Thomas (10:32)
Like, are you?
Sarah Perkins (10:34)
Yeah, yeah. And I feel like any time we're like actively leaning into contempt in the name of peacemaking, we should take pause. I think there's yeah, I'm trying to decide what to pull from. In my own life, right, like we've filed a lawsuit, my husband and I, which I had such a negative perception of people who filed lawsuits, right? Like these litigious jerks, right?
Patrick Mason (10:57)
Like, why can't you just work it out? Right?
Sarah Perkins (10:58)
Yeah. ⁓ and I felt like very strange about that and very, very complicated about it. Particularly because like some of the people in these laws, in the lawsuit that we filed were like friends of somebody who I care very deeply about and very dear and have a very dear relationship with.
And it like I worked through that, right? Like I continue to work through that when we went to depositions and and and like at every stage of the lawsuit it felt really, really complicated. and I think there is a way in which you can try to continue to look the people in the eyes, right? As you're like and and and and maintain their humanity, ⁓ as you're also trying to build better systems, build a more equitable and fair world. and I remember after we were in a hearing a while back, we had to let go recess in the hallway for a little while. And my husband went over and like sort of chatted with one of the opposing people, right? And it was like, what are you doing?
This is a terrible idea. And I think his dad actually ended up being like, this isn't over yet. Come back over here. But it was this lovely actually I think moment of like, you're a human. I'm a human. You know?
Jennifer Thomas (12:08)
We're trying to change a system, but that doesn't mean that we're necessarily enemies.
Sarah Perkins (12:13)
Yeah, and it might have been like really terrible strategy. But I think it was helpful for me even just to remind like this is someone who I could actually have a conversation with, conceivably. Maybe not right now, but like I could have a conversation with them. and and in most of the most of the peace processes that we've talked about, I think the big turning point for so many of these people, ⁓ who were in like entrenched conflict, right? Like violence on the street, people dying, their friends dying, their family members dying. I think moving them from this place of really, really high, intense conflict to actually sitting at a table and working out a compromise and finding a way to move forward in this country together was learning to imagine a world in which a a country in which they are part of me and their interests matter to my interests and their humanity is just as real as my humanity. ⁓
And I like, I don't think you can move forward in the peace process without that. Or in any kind of conflict, right? Whether you're filing a lawsuit or whether you're repairing deep harm in countries or whether you're like trying to get along with your primary chorister, right?
Jennifer Thomas (13:16)
it's a reminder that systems certainly are set up by people, but but that it's people that matter, right? And so we can try to move towards changing a system and particularly like a lawsuit is doing that peacefully. It's not taking up arms. It's not saying this person harmed me, going to slaughter them in their bed. It's saying I'm going to use the law to kind of try to resolve a problem that I have with someone.
And ⁓ I I just love that idea. And I think it's a challenge for all of us to to not hate the people that set up the systems or to disdain the people that set up the systems or the people who generationally might seem responsible for the systems, but to say, no, I'm going to change this, but I'm still going to make a place for the people that set up those systems in the new world I'm creating.
Patrick Mason (13:58)
For people who might be like conflict avoidant, which is most of us, that's just most people statistically, how can we be a little bit more like Elijah? What are some pro tips, you know, on being that kind of peacemaker without, you know, going the route that we've just talked about, demonizing and turning people into objects and those kinds of things.
Sarah Perkins (14:23)
Yeah, well, as a pro at avoiding conflict. ⁓ I don't know. I mean I think just you know, like the wilderness in the Old Testament is really like famously useful at like bringing forth really divine things out of people. But the wilderness is never comfortable, right? Like conflict is never comfortable. It's always awkward. It always feels like, I wish like
Patrick Mason (14:27)
Ha ha ha.
Sarah Perkins (14:46)
I think any time I brought up a sticky conversation, like within seconds I'm always like, shouldn't have said anything. Why didn't you do this?
Patrick Mason (14:52)
Do I really want to do this?
Sarah Perkins (14:54)
We back up a little bit. Yeah. but I also feel like, you know, the wilderness is a divine place. Conflict I think really does have the potential to bring forth beautiful things even though it's always awkward and never comfortable.
Patrick Mason (15:08)
I like that. well, should we shift to to Elisha ⁓ a little bit? So there's this famous passing of the mantle. And you know, we oftentimes talk about that in the church as the succession of prophets, and I think that's a really important way to to think about it and talk about it. Talk about it, how do you think about that succession and the transition from one person to another, from one style of peacemaking to another, one style of prophethood to another.
Sarah Perkins (15:35)
Yeah, yeah, so so the story goes, right, that Elish Elijah has this like red mantle that he wears, so that everybody can recognize him as a prophet, or or whatever purpose it serves. and he hits the water and the water of the River Jordan parts and he walks across with Elisha, who's like his prophet apprentice.
Jennifer Thomas (15:54)
Flashy, he's flashy, always flashy, Never doing things halfway.
Sarah Perkins (15:58)
Horses, flaming horses with a golden chariot come down from heaven and pick up and take off. And he drops the mantle and Elisha picks it up. We were telling our kid this story, we were reading it from our books to our kids a couple weeks ago, and my son was like, Do you know what sounds way better than dying?
Jennifer Thomas (16:00)
Yeah.
Patrick Mason (16:17)
Ha ha ha.
Sarah Perkins (16:18)
Which is true. ⁓
Patrick Mason (16:19)
He is not wrong.
Jennifer Thomas (16:21)
It was a very awesome way to exit stage left, right?
Patrick Mason (16:23)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Elvis has left the building.
Jennifer Thomas (16:27)
No press releases for him. Nope.
Patrick Mason (16:29)
Yeah.
Sarah Perkins (16:30)
So then amazingly, right? Like you just see this, like a massive miracle, right? Like nothing you will ever see again. most of us. And and and Elisha then goes and picks up this mantle and he strikes the river Jordan with it. Which is just astonishing to me, right? Like
Little old me, this kid who is I think like a farmer or something like that says like okay this is my turn this is my time and he and he has the faith to try. ⁓ I I think we have a line in our book like if you if you're willing to try when you might fail, that is something, right? Like I think that that is something that he accomplished in that moment. And the water does part and he walks across
⁓ and I think there's some irony that Elijah and Elisha is just because their names are so similar and they're they come one right out to the other. I think we confuse them all the time. They're probably like the most confused two prophets of any. But I think their approach to the prophethood is really, really different. Elijah, as we've discussed, is really flashy and lots of fire in his imagery.
Jennifer Thomas (17:16)
All the time.
Sarah Perkins (17:32)
Elisha, his miracles are like somebody makes a soup with gourds that have gone bad and he like adds some flour and the soup is not bad anymore. Or he makes oil last longer. Or he ⁓ the water in the river is tasting bad or i is is not great, and so he like blesses the river and and it and it is good water now. Right? Like these are such like homespun miracles, you know? they feel so simple and and not trivial but but just homey, compared to like calling down fire on the priests of Baal and I think if we're if we're looking at this as as how do we be peacemakers, I think again, in almost every peacemaking instance you you need the people who are willing to call tr speak truth of power, who are willing to call out injustice and find new ways and and and take down old systems so that we can create new systems. But also like an an absolutely necessary component of that is people who are willing to interact as peacemakers, like person to person, heart to heart, who who are willing to bring soup, right? Or like dig wells or purify, your water is bad, let me come help with that. and and do this really, really I think humanizing work of of engaging with people as as people, ⁓ in the way that we talked about. ⁓ and I think Elisha really does fulfill that role as a as a prophet and as a as a person.
Jennifer Thomas (18:50)
So one of the things that struck me is there's it it's it feels very gendered to me that ⁓ there is a kind of peacemaking that is more allowed for men, right? That's the flashy power, I'm gonna defeat the armies, you know, in tricky ways or whatever. And then this gentle, ⁓ restorative nurturing. and and I I just would love your thoughts on that because I think that's too bad. I think we actually need both women who can speak truth to power and be forceful about it, and men who recognize the deep healing nature of peacemaking. And one of the things I think I do appreciate is that I feel like I have seen those patterns alternate even within our own church leadership over the years. And and and I I just think that's a good thing for us. I'd love your thoughts on that.
Sarah Perkins (19:36)
Yeah, absolutely. That it reminded me immediately of Monica McWilliams, who led the Women's Coalition in Northern Ireland. and she was very, very vocal and involved in the negotiations and in standing up for the rights of the marginalized and the minorities during the peace negotiations in Northern Ireland. She brought a very unique and important voice to those talks. And she tells this amazing story of during the last few weeks of the talks, people were like sleeping in the office buildings, right? And they, it was just so intense and they had such a strong, difficult to make deadline to to come up with a treaty. and or to come up with an agreement. And and so the women were feeling anxious about showing up to the press day after day wearing the same clothes. ⁓ and so they started like trading jackets and blouses and and s like
switching up outfits with each other so that they didn't look like they had worn the same clothes for the last four days. and they would like some they had something that would allow them to boil eggs and they would make egg sandwiches for each other. ⁓ and at one point like some dude shows up at the doorway and he's like, I heard you guys have egg sandwiches. ⁓ and it's just this amazing story I think of like the sort of very basic human carrying that goes into this much louder, much much more present, much more public sort of like, you know, peacemaking with the treaties and with the negotiations and and with like signing your name in front of all the cameras. I don't know, just this very, very human component that women I think are uniquely good at, but also, that everybody benefits right by, right? Like all the water lifts all boats. and certainly I've seen examples of men doing that as well.
For sure.
Patrick Mason (21:13)
Yeah, it reminds me, ⁓ you know, when you mentioned like digging wells or something like that, it reminds me of not one of my like prouder moments from from my mission. ⁓ I I think in a lot of ways, the way that we structure missions are very much around sort of like masculine forms of of energy and and doing and proselytizing and counting baptisms and the numbers and the stats and and and and and the way that we've done all of that and
And I was in in a lot of ways like a very traditional missionary, like that that that worked for me and and and and there's a lot of healing and peacemaking that comes with that as you as you talk to people and they they literally change their lives and and you're spreading the gospel and s and so that approach really does bear fruit. And I had one companion who just that did not work for him. He was he was actually a farm kid from Idaho and he said
He was miserable. He hated knocking on doors. He didn't even like the teaching. Like the part that most people are like, like when you're actually like sitting down and talking to somebody. And he's like, I just wish they had sent me to Africa to dig wells or something like that. And in my 19-year-old brain, like I couldn't get that. Like that that was not what a mission was, right? ⁓ and and we had all kinds of conflict and and and and I just didn't get it.
Jennifer Thomas (22:23)
Mm-hmm.
Patrick Mason (22:29)
Now, thankfully, with a little more, you know, seasoning, like I get it. And that would have been an amazing thing. And now that the church has more opportunities, I think we're still figuring out how to do different kinds of mission. ⁓ you know, it'd be nice to sort of expand that yeah even more for for our eighteen and nineteen and twenty year olds. But like there are different ways to go about doing this. And it's all mission or it's all peacemaking. It's, you know, and sometimes we just get like this this story in our mind of what like the the the the best kind or yeah again the flashiest, the most public, the things that you can count, as if that is like the real thing and other things are somehow ancillary or supportive or something.
Jennifer Thomas (23:01)
Mm-hmm. Or or they don't bear fruit, right? They don't count.
Sarah Perkins (23:15)
I never served a mission. But that reminds me of this story from my husband Josh on his mission. He ⁓ he just had like a series of really difficult companions as happens on missions. and he had this one companion who he had like some sort of genetic thing where he was like he was four feet tall, right? He was a short little guy and he looked really young, he looked like he was twelve years old and he just had severe and debilitating depression. and he was like out trying to do this mission and it was just so hard on this nineteen year old kid. And they were at the mission president's house and his mission companion was like in the office with the president, meeting with the president and Josh was sitting outside and he's like, I don't know what to do And he was like trying to pray. He's like, Please bless this elder. Please bless this elder right like there's not so much that you can do And so then he found e like there's a hymn book sitting beside him and he took the hymn book and he just started singing hymns in the hallway.
To the elder and I yeah, I feel like that feels I don't know, it's just like this moment of caring. Like I'm here with you. I'm trying to make my support for you known in some way that's like not totally comfortable for me 'cause I know that you're not totally comfortable either right now. Anyway. Yeah.
Jennifer Thomas (24:24)
Well, and I think one of the things I love about these stories of Elisha is that we take for granted how hard it is to build peace or to feel peace when your temporal conditions are miserable. And ⁓ you know, and for this elder, temporal conditions were miserable. And probably it's true for this Idaho farm kid who wanted to go work. He wanted to, his way of expressing love and affection and maybe he wanted to work. Physically. And so I I think one of the things that I love about Elisha and this story is that it reminds us that we can we can do all the big flashy things in the world, but ultimately if the people around us are in deep physical discomfort, they're in pain, they're hungry, they're thirsty, it it's gonna be actually very hard for them to participate in or feel peace.
Patrick Mason (25:15)
Yeah. So so how do you think then, ⁓ Sarah about ⁓ peace, especially as we think through the lens of Elisha as peacemaking as a as a kind of of restoration, as as as healing, a little different model than the kind of speaking truth to power.
Sarah Perkins (25:15)
Yeah. Yeah, so ⁓ I think my favorite story of Elisha is is the story of they that be with us. and I think we often do a disservice to that story because we don't tell the whole story. So the story goes that ⁓ there is a Syrian army that kept trying to attack let's see, Elisha was in the northern kingdom, right?
Patrick Mason (25:50)
Sure.
Jennifer Thomas (25:54)
For the purposes of this conversation, yes.
Sarah Perkins (25:56)
They kept trying to attack his kingdom, Kingdom of Israel, I think. and Elisha kept foiling their plans 'cause he would like figure out prophesy where they were gonna attack and the the kingdom of Israel would like head him off. And so at first the Syrians think that they have a mole, but then they realize it's a prophet, so then they go to attack the prophet.
Patrick Mason (26:00)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Perkins (26:17)
And Elisha's servant is outside and he sees these armies coming, like the dust that they're kicking up and the and the the clear presence that an army is headed their way. and he runs to tell Elisha, and Elisha's totally unbothered. And the servant's freaking out, he's like, What are you doing? And Elisha says, They that are with us or are more than they that be with them. and the servant is confused, and Elisha prays that his eyes will be opened.
And the servant opens his eyes, sees more clearly, and he sees that there's angels all around them and that they way far outnumber the army that's coming to destroy them. And that's normally like where we stop with this story. That's about as far as we go. And and and for years I assumed that that the angels were just gonna totally decimate this army, that they were gonna take him out. but that isn't what happened.
Jennifer Thomas (27:00)
Yeah. That this was a force that this was a situation of force, right? You have more force on your side.
Sarah Perkins (27:07)
Totally, totally. Yeah. and and that it was a matter of numbers, right? Like, we're outnumbering them, we're gonna win this battle, they're gonna be like we're gonna totally take him out and it's gonna be fine. but then the army shows up and instead Elisha prays that they will be blinded. And they're blinded, and so they like that stops them short, right? and so then Elisha leads them.
And again, my assumption is like, he'll lead them to a cliff for something and say, like, promise they'll never come back. Then they do, and then they're off and then we're ⁓ but he doesn't do that. Instead he leads them straight into the middle of Samaria, the capital of Israel, which is where they were trying to get to anyway. and the gates close around them and then he restores their eyesight.
Jennifer Thomas (27:33)
Yeah. Or or ha ha, you're blind, we're killing you, right?
Sarah Perkins (27:51)
And the king of of Israel is like, okay, so now do we kill them? Thank you for bringing, for delivering that. That was very convenient. So do we do our job now? And Elisha says, No. Now you feed them.
Patrick Mason (27:56)
Like when does the killing start?
Jennifer Thomas (27:58)
Yeah. So when can we start killing our enemies? Yeah. Chop chop. Yep.
Sarah Perkins (28:09)
And they do, right? They feed this army, this army that comes in with the intent of conquering of taking out the prophet so that they can conquer the people. And then the chapter ends saying then they said let they let they let them go home, right? And the army goes home and this army never comes and attacks the kingdom of Israel again. And it's this way more like I think it's the only army that it suggests that about, right? Like the Philistines and the Babylonian like all of these armies come back again and again and again until the kingdoms of Israel, either Israel or or Judea, are just decimated, right? But this army doesn't. This army doesn't come back. and it's just this way more effective, longer lasting peace that's established not by like the total decimation by angels, right? But by sharing a meal together. ⁓ and if it's okay, I'll just read the last we wrote this story in our in our Old Testament Bible story book, The Old Testament. and this is the last Okay. These are the last three paragraphs of that story.
Jennifer Thomas (29:06)
We were hoping you'd read from it today.
Sarah Perkins (29:10)
It goes, And Elisha restored sight to the blind army, and then told the people of Israel to bring them food and water. But instead of some soup or jerky or day old bagels, the people prepared a whole feast, in the Bible it says a feast of great provisions. And they ate, and sang songs, and danced like they were celebrating a holiday together. And they were. For only a few times in history have armies put down their swords and differences and met like this, and each time it was a miracle.
And each time it was a revelation, a realization, a chance to see the world more accurately.
There are precious few bad guys. And that doesn't mean that there aren't wars or death or tragedy or crimes or suffering. That's all real. But so is this. There are many, many, many, many more good people in this world than bad ones. There are more people for us than against us. There is more love than hate, more caring than indifference, more humanity than its opposite. And this will not always seem true. At times it will seem like nobody cares or people are selfish and cruel.
And when you feel this way, look again. It's not that you're wrong. It's just that there's something else, too. Heat waves rising over the kettle. A soft light, a mirage, a silvery something. And if you look, you will see them. The terrified soldiers, the golden angels, the enemy, the friend. In the end, they are all part of us. And though we might not know it yet, we are fighting for each other.
Patrick Mason (30:33)
It's beautiful. I think it's such a great model here that so often, as you say, we stop the story short. Right. And we I think this is part of what conflict does to us is it narrows our vision. It narrows our moral imagination.
We stop the story short about the other person, or or the other people, or about the horizons of possibility that are here. It's just it's it has such a narrowing and that's a very natural thing. No doubt it has to do with like brain chemistry and stuff like that. So it's not evil, or something like that. It's just something and this is what like prophets do. This is what, you know, what learning the skills and tools and language of peacemakers does is it helps gives us these tools to expand the moral imagination when all of the incentives are to narrow them. so I just love the way that you end that story and see it.
Sarah Perkins (31:31)
Yeah, yeah. So there's I've been I've been re listening to some of our interviews with these people from South Africa and Northern Ireland and we did an interview with Harold Good, who is a Methodist minister who with his a a Catholic priest was charged with overseeing the disarmament of Northern Ireland. and in his interview he talks about how you can't just say, like, come and bring your weapons, you have to, and then we will destroy them and then you will have no more weapons 'cause
'Cause that feels like surrender, because that is surrender, right? And surrender will only increase resentment and and just kick the conflict down the road. and so he sa he talks about how disarmament is really ultimately an act of imagination of of persuading people of a new world, the possibility of a new world, where they no longer have to have paramilitaries that are armed in order to protect their families.
Jennifer Thomas (31:56)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Perkins (32:19)
There's a lot that he can't say about it, 'cause so much of it was really confidential. But he tells a story of speaking with an IRA member, and trying to persuade him, like, these treaties are real and and people really are giving up their weapons and this world is coming into being and these agreements, like I I saw these agreements happen. and the IRA member said, You are asking me to believe something that I have never seen.
And Harold Good said, and that reminded me of poor Saint Thomas, who was asked to believe something that he couldn't see, that was almost impossible. That had never been, that was almost impossible to imagine. and then he pauses in the interview and he says, Blessed are they who believe. I feel like that's actually just a beautiful statement about peacemakers.
Jennifer Thomas (32:52)
That had never been, right?
Sarah Perkins (33:03)
Blessed are the peacemakers who believe in this possibility of a better world, a less violent world, a kinder world, a world where justice thrives, but so does civility and brotherly love. I think that's a hard world to see, a hard world to imagine. But blessed are they who believe, nonetheless.
Jennifer Thomas (33:22)
It just strikes me as we've been talking about this. I think about everything that my society, movies, everything I have seen and, you know, consumed in my life, and I'm not really much of a consumer of violence, but that fighting that army seems completely normal. Like that's a courage that it's easy to summon. I'm gonna protect my family. I'm gonna go to battle. I'm gonna reenact Lord of the Rings, yada yada. But I think that what is so hard for me, even as a peace builder, to imagine is how I could summon the courage to be face to face with my enemy and feed them and to welcome them into my home. And and and that is a level of courage that I don't think we see. And I love the way you frame that, that part of our job as peacemakers is to in small ways, in big ways, make visible something new.
Right. So that the people around us can say, I saw that. I might have seen it on a really small scale in my Sunday school class. I might have seen it in a really you know, what might not seem like a hugely impactful way at my town meeting. But that if we can just give people visibility into that, then we give them something that they can kind of trust and maybe believe in. Idunno, I just love the way you framed that. It's just really, really beautiful.
Patrick Mason (34:41)
Yeah, so I wanna as we kind of move towards wrapping up, Sarah, I wanna sort this tie this back to like your storybook project, which I think is so beautiful, the Book Mormon and the and the Bible, the storybooks. It seems like I mean what we're talking about here is the power of story, the power of narrative. so just talk to me about like your and Josh's strategy here, your theory of change in retelling familiar stories, but telling them faithfully. And I mean that both in the sense of like you're telling the stories, but you're telling them with this kind of the faith of Elisha to see new things, to see new possibilities, to see new horizons in these very old and familiar stories.
Jennifer Thomas (35:16)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Perkins (35:24)
Yeah. I think I mean so much of this project is really just about our family selfishly probably. we have th we three little boys and ⁓ our our oldest son, Clarence, he's just seven years old. And I feel like he's actually had like a surprisingly hard life for a seven year old like he's gone through a lot for somebody who's so young.
Patrick Mason (35:29)
Yeah.
Sarah Perkins (35:43)
And I think he has a lot of reasons for thinking the world is a really scary place, and a really, really difficult place to be. and he's been hurt by people, right, in ways that a child never should have been. and by systems that didn't work for our family when they needed to work for our family.
And I remember a couple years ago, ⁓ I was I was talking with Clarence and he was like I think he was five or something like that. and we were just over dinner and and in and he was saying, Mom, do you have charity for the whole world? And I was like, Nope. Absolutely not. there are people who it's just it's too hard for me to have charity for them, bud, sorry.
And he and he thought about it for a second, he's like, Do you mean like the people who really scared our family? And I said, Yeah, those people, it's really hard for me to have charity for them. and he thought about it for a second and he said, Well, maybe I can try to have charity for them and then you can borrow some of mine.
Patrick Mason (36:37)
Wow.
Sarah Perkins (36:37)
And I said, Clarence, you are a remarkable kid. Did you know that? ⁓ and he looked at me super wide eyed and he said, because I can turn invisible?
Jennifer Thomas (36:49)
Like that too.
Sarah Perkins (36:50)
I just I think so much of our writing in these stories is trying to write to this kid who has every reason to doubt the world, but trying to help him imagine a world that he can love anyway. Because God so loves the world, even when it's broken God's heart, you know, millions of times, billions of times, with each of God's children. and to to hope and try to try to imagine a a reality that's here, I think, in this soil, on this ground with these people, that is good and that is kind and compassionate and that can be drawn into being with something as simple as a good story.
Jennifer Thomas (37:25)
Well Sarah, it has been an absolute joy to have you with us today. ⁓ I think I'm gonna feast on this for a while, gonna be thinking about it. So thank you for sharing ⁓ your thoughts with us. I think you might have just answered that question, but we might make you reiterate it. Where do you find peace?
Sarah Perkins (37:40)
I don't know. With people mostly I think. People are so many things but I think they're good.
Jennifer Thomas (37:45)
I agree.
Patrick Mason (37:45)
That's great. Sarah, thank you so much. Thanks for your wisdom. Thanks for everything you bring into the world, the creativity, the imagination, and ⁓ helping us all see the world with with new eyes.
Sarah Perkins (37:57)
Thank you.
Jennifer Thomas (38:03)
Thanks for listening to this episode of "Proclaim Peace." To hear more, you can subscribe on a podcast app of your choice or on YouTube. You can always find full show notes or transcriptions at proclaimpeace.org.
Patrick Mason (38:17)
"Proclaim Peace" is a partnership between MWEG and Waymakers. You can learn more about Waymakers at waymakers.us. Thanks again for listening and we’ll see you next time.
