"Proclaim Peace" Season 2, Episode 17 // Navigating Power: The Stories of Vashti and Esther, With Emma Addams
Listen on Spotify or Apple Podcasts, or watch on YouTube.
Emma Addams joins Jen and Patrick to explore the themes of peace, defiance, and civic engagement through the lens of the biblical stories of Vashti and Esther. They discuss how personal definitions of peace can shape one's actions and the implications of defiance in a patriarchal society. The conversation delves into the complexities of navigating power dynamics, the different theories of change, and the strategic use of managed compliance in effecting social change. They discuss the different forms of courage exhibited by both women, the importance of trust and proximity in relationships, and the complexities of navigating agency in a world with limited options.
Chapters
[02:08] The story of Vashti — defiance and consequences
[09:58] Esther's entry, navigating power dynamics
[15:50] Theories of change, inside vs. outside strategies
[21:16] Managed compliance: A strategic approach to change
[25:57] The power of listening
[29:09] Peacemaking: Vashti vs. Esther
[33:50] Navigating agency and peacemaking
[40:00] The role of trust and proximity
[45:45] Faith and the cost of peacemaking
[51:20] Hope in courageous voices
[54:37] Finding peace amidst conflict
Transcript
Patrick Mason (00:00)
Hi everyone and welcome to the "Proclaim Peace" podcast, where we use principles from the scriptures to talk about how to become more effective peace builders. I am Patrick Mason. I'm here as always with my co host Jen Thomas. Jen, how are ya?
Jennifer Thomas (00:12)
I'm doing well, Patrick. I'm grateful that at least where I live, the heat wave has passed and now we're just sitting with a little bit of rain, which I can live with.
Patrick Mason (00:20)
Where I live the heat wave may never pass and we may never see rain again.
Jennifer Thomas (00:23)
I know. I'm sorry, you live on the surface of the sun.
Patrick Mason (00:27)
Yes, exactly. I actually really like where I live in Logan, Utah, but right now recently it kind of feels like one of the circles of Dante's hell.
Jennifer Thomas (00:35)
Yes, yes. I was in Utah for a couple days this week and I was like, New England, here I come. I was excited to get back.
Patrick Mason (00:42)
Yes. like I'm sitting in an air conditioned house, let's let's be all honest, right?
Jennifer Thomas (00:50)
Well, we are excited to have a great conversation today. Do you want to launch it, Patrick?
Patrick Mason (00:54)
Yeah, absolutely. I mean we are we are talking about one of the the iconic books in in the Old Testament, the Book of Esther. and of course this is especially exciting for a podcast brought to us from Mor Mormon Women for Ethical Government, because there's not that many books in the the Christian or Restoration scriptures that are named after women and where women are central characters and this is one of them. So this is a much beloved book.
Jennifer Thomas (01:20)
Well, and Patrick knows this because the problem I have is having studied art history, I am very familiar with the women of the Old Testament who are either s you know, sort of fly below the storyline or are sometimes apocryphal. But they're not really great for this podcast because often they were like, you know, taking names. They were like they were they were not solving problems in peaceful ways.
Patrick Mason (01:44)
We're not really highlighting like tent spikes in people's foreheads. That's that's not that's kinda not our aesthetic on Proclaim Peace.
Jennifer Thomas (01:51)
I did propose it. So some of you know who that story refers to, but it's great. So we're gonna lean into a story that actually does the work of peacemaking for us. We're hoping to do this in a really unique way because I again to Patrick's point, we're all familiar, particularly as Latter-day Saints, with the story of Esther. She's one of our favorite stories. And I think because we read it in a way that is to align with our go-along to get along personality, right? Like we are we're the kind of people that live as a minority population and have figured out how to kind of sidle ourselves up to power, make nice, and figure out how to do our best in those situations. And we could have told that story that way and we could have approached that this way, but we're doing something a little bit different today, which we're really excited about. So we are going to tell this as the story of two women, because there are actually two women in this story.
It starts with a queen. It's a story of two queens, but it starts with Vashti and her story. And then we will go into Esther. And we want to talk about the way that both of these women have a lot of lessons to teach us about living in unjust societies and how we can bring our best to kind of solve that.
Patrick Mason (03:01)
Yeah, it's exciting because it it's another example and it is something we highlight over and over again that there's not just one way to be a peacemaker, that there are many ways. it involves discernment, it involves kind of reading the situation, it involves like what is your own temperament, what is the the sphere in which you can act as you discern that. but it always involves courage and bravery and a willingness sometimes to to to sacrifice and for not not knowing what the how things are gonna turn out. And so these are pretty extraordinary stories of of these two women.
Jennifer Thomas (03:35)
Well, and I think as we'll talk about in this podcast, we've kind of come to the realization that we hope you all are learning that to be true peacemakers, there has to be a little bit of a healthy decentering of the self. And and both of these women we think did this in really interesting ways and and we are really excited to talk with our guest about it. And we have the perfect guest for you today.
Patrick Mason (03:59)
Yes indeed.
Jennifer Thomas (03:59)
She is my co-executive director at Mormon Women for Ethical Government and a dear, dear friend. So we have with us today Emma Petty Addams, and I'm just going to do her the justice of reading her beautiful biography. After receiving her bachelor's degree in piano performance at Stanford University, she spent time in Boston and Silicon Valley working in contracts, negotiation, corporate transactions, and capitalization and investor relations. In addition, she's built and run large piano studios in California, New Jersey, and Nebraska.
While these are seemingly unrelated, these previous career opportunities were excellent preparation for the fast-paced yet methodical and collaborative nature of our work at MWEG. Every time, and I think this is true for both of us. An Weg member writes an op ed, speaks out against injustice, or expresses her opinion peacefully on social media. We are grateful for the chance to help women contribute their part to the complex multi-voice symphony that is our democracy. And so we are so excited to bring Emma Petty Addams before you today to talk about this wonderful story of two women who do peace building in very different ways.
Jennifer Thomas (05:04)
Welcome Emma. We are so grateful to have you with us and I am particularly grateful because it's always a joy for me to get to spend time with you and hear your thoughts. So thanks for joining us.
Emma Addams (05:13)
Thanks for having me. It's fun to be back.
Jennifer Thomas (05:15)
Okay, we are gonna start this conversation the way we always do, which is by asking you how you define peace.
Emma Addams (05:20)
So I was thinking back to when I was on this podcast at the very, very, very beginning and how I defined it then and I was asking myself if I would define it differently today, just for sake of variety. And I don't remember exactly what I said, but I'm pretty sure it's the same version of what I would say today. Is I'm just gonna go deeply personal and say that for me, peace comes from feeling like I am right with God and that is like the source of of like when I am feeling that when I feel like I am we're good, like we're we're on the same ish page, then everything else, no matter how complex or terrible or difficult it is, I can still feel peace in it. And that's the only thing I can think of that brings me peace no matter my external circumstances is that feeling of like we're on the same page and we're working in we're rolling in the same direction.
Jennifer Thomas (06:11)
Well, and I think that's gonna show up a little bit in this story as we get to it a little bit later of you know, how how relevant that is. so thanks for sharing that with us.
Patrick Mason (06:19)
Yeah. Yeah, I was thinking the same thing that I actually think that's really useful to think about that we're gonna talk about the the Book of Esther and multiple characters in in the book of Esther and and sometimes it is a matter of choosing conscience and choosing, you know, trying to be right with God and with other people, regardless of what the the circumstances and maybe the powers that be say. So so I'm excited about this.
The book of Esther is we obviously focus on the character Esther. The book is named after her, right? and we'll get to her. But but actually the book doesn't start with her. Sometimes we forget that Esther isn't the main character out of the gate, that there's another woman who is is right there, and it's it's Vashti. and the book starts with something of an act of defiance, also sometimes we see we've seen this throughout the Old Testament. That there there have been other other women and men who have defied the powers of bee and and stood up for principle. but but the the story opens with Vashti. So so tell us a little bit about her and and and and what she does and what you find interesting about her acts.
Emma Addams (07:28)
I’m honestly really excited to talk about her. I don't know about you all, but I I skipped over her before. I neglected to know to know her until this reading. And I was so excited to do a podcast about Esther because she's kind of the I don't know, she's the woman that so many of us in the Old Testament we look up to her. We s she's held up as just the the glorious example of womanhood, I think, and courage. and so I'm a little bit ashamed to say that I did not really know anything if much much of anything about Vashdi. So as I was reading through Esther in preparation for this, I decided to take a very kind of straightforward, simple approach to reading it. I chose not to read anyone else's commentaries. I usually will try to do a little dive into some of the background and the historical and look at different commentaries. And I was like, I'm just gonna read it as if I was just a human come into the story for the first time in 2026 and just read the words on the page and see what they say to me personally. And and I immediately was just like taken by Vashti, Vashti, whatever you to call her, because she's hidden from our view for much in a lot in a lot of ways, I think, scripturally. Like a lot of times the story of Esther is told and then she's left out completely. But she is a woman who refused to do something that was asked of her by by a a king, by a man in power, and she defied him, as you said, Patrick.
Ultimately, there is no story of Esther without the story of Vashti. Like she what she did, the act of defiance, where her they were there was a banquet, there was a men's banquet, and a woman's banquet. And and in the men's banquet, it says they all the men were together, and the heart of the king was merry with wine. So you could just fill in the gaps there. It literally says that, you know.
Patrick Mason (09:14)
Ha ha ha.
Jennifer Thomas (09:14)
Yeah, right?
Emma Addams (09:16)
Okay. So the heart of the king is merry with wine, he's with all his buddies, and he says, Queen, come to me with your crown, you know, and and demands that she comes. And it would be completely normal and, you know, culturally norm for her just to come. She has to, she doesn't have to have a reason to come or not come, right? She just comes when she's she serves as queen at the pleasure of the king. And she refuses. She and we don't know much more than that. We don't have many more details about that. But she chooses not not to come to the king in that moment.
Jennifer Thomas (09:47)
And but Emma, I would just add as a woman, for many women listening to this story, once you hear that laid out, you can imagine contextually why you might be reluctant to show up at that party. Right. It's probably not too hard to imagine why you might I mean we I I don't even want to go too far off script, but to understand without even going into motives or that there just might be this just not might not be a really safe or awesome place for a woman to be. Yeah.
Patrick Mason (10:14)
Well, it's it's and it's very clear, I mean, they are objectifying her. The only thing that they're talking about is her beauty, right? For she is fair to look at. That that's the only reason they want her there is her beauty and her crown. And that tracks with the rest of the story.
Jennifer Thomas (10:24)
And and I won't hesitate to extrapolate. Emma doesn't want to, but there are different interpretations of the story that that indicate that she by saying in her crown that she was asked to come wearing nothing else. And so, you know, you can completely understand why that might not be she might not be amenable to that.
Emma Addams (10:39)
And who knows how many times this had happened to her before. We don't know. I mean, there's a lot there's a lot to fill in here and we can we can we can extrapolate and fill it in. And I think that's the normal part of reading scripture is to imagine kind of, you know, imagine yourself in there and how you would experience it. And so had this happened before, had she been brought into an unsafe environment before. Like she so for whatever for you know, I w I I'm gonna give her some credit and I'm gonna assume that she had good reasons for saying no. And many maybe many of them.
And so she refuses to come, and the king then his his advisors then proceed to kind of rile him up, right? And they say some version of not only against the king has she done wrong, but also against all of the officials. So it's this example of of you know, kind of the people around you. It's like a little bit of peer pressure going on here, and saying, How c how can you let this woman basically you know defy you? And and then they say some version of if her behavior is known to all women, it will cause them to look at their husbands with contempt. So let's extrapolate out the actions of one woman and assume that her refusal to comply is going to have implications far beyond. They're not wrong, are they? They have reason to be worried, but I think it's so fascinating to see those words in black and white in the scripture. it's to me, it's such an interesting piece of this.
Patrick Mason (12:01)
Yeah, the the women won't always just like slavishly obey their husbands, whatever he says, right?
Emma Addams (12:07)
Yeah, and it would be a norm for them to do so at this time. So she is breaking a significant norm. She is transgressing in a major way.
Jennifer Thomas (12:14)
And and there's clearly fear. I mean, again, this isn't extrapolation, it's there in the text. It's fear that her this one individual shouldn't be treated that we shouldn't respond to what Vashti did just as an individual, but that this could have systemic consequences. Like she needs to be treated as an example of all things, and she needs to be treated as a threat to an entire system.
Emma Addams (12:38)
Yeah. And we don't know if she was banished, if she was executed. Probably those are the two options guessed according to the norms, but this resulted in her no longer being the queen. So she in my mind, she weighed the consequences when she said no. She she knew that it would that that what would happen and she, you know, decided to make the choice she made. and so I just you know, we'll talk about this more, but I think again, if if there's a queen there then the the need for Esther to come in and fill that slot doesn't happen. So this is this lays this is an important intro into talking about Esther and I would argue it's more than an intro. It's almost like a companion to the story of Esther because she had an impact.
Something happened here with Vashti. She she did something and we don't even know the impact that she had beyond the words of the story. Maybe there were other women who chose who chose to say no to being objectified in the future. I don't know. but I think I just I came out of the story with just a bit of respect and some respect and and trust for for Vashti. That was, you know, it
almost equal if not if not the same in in weight to Esther. I didn't see them as the bad woman and the good woman. I think a lot of times stories want us to put women in boxes and I think Vashti was doing what she needed to do.
Jennifer Thomas (13:52)
So let me ask you a question, Emma. You and I do work, we we lead lead women in the work of civic and political engagement, right? We're asking them to engage with people in power that and and kind of plead, encourage, get them to do things that we see are maybe either representative of what the people want or for the public good. I I think it's really interesting. This text purposefully teaches a lesson about what happens to people who do that in societies where power isn't equally distributed. So just what does this teach you in terms of civic engagement about some of the risks that people run when they do that work in open defiance? Are there limits to that? Or is there a place for it?
Emma Addams (14:35)
Yeah, I think there are both limits and there's a place and there's no formula to determine which is the case. There's no like flow chart. Is open defiance the right thing here?
Jennifer Thomas (14:45)
If this then that, yeah.
Emma Addams (14:47)
Yeah, because human nature is such that it's unpredictable. So I think this is where I will extrapolate a little bit and I'm gonna insert in these women what I see in the women that I that we work with and that I see when it comes to peacemaking. And I see women who are thoughtful, careful, prayerful, and inspired in how they choose to what t what techniques or strategies they choose to use.
And so, you know, I personally would probably not be seen as an open defiance human by many people. that is not a strategy that I necessarily have used that often, if an if ever, and I choose a different path. But sometimes like Esther, women who've openly defied make it easier for me to come in and have a conversation because I'm invited in.
And so I and and who am I to who am I to to look back at those open defiance and say, Well, they failed and therefore, you know, and I and my way is better. I would I would argue that in times their open defiance and their their actions, even though I've chosen not to do that, maybe they were inspired, you know, they and maybe often were. So I I think I think the reality is in a society like we're talking about here, open defiance is practically a death sentence if if not close to it at all times. And the difference is we live in a free and open society in which we should be able to openly defy.
And that is just part of being an American in our case, right? We should be able to say the things we want to say and they can be it's free speech, they sh they can be unpalatable, they can be hurtful, everything. But there is a risk to it. And I and I think you have to calculate that risk.
Jennifer Thomas (16:24)
A perfect analogy to kind of what you're saying is the suffrage movement. That you and I are able to do the work that we do without fear. We're able to vote. We're able we're seen as active participating citizens with a a full a full voice only because there were a set of women who in some cases less than a hundred years ago acted in open defiance, right? Changed chained themselves to the White House gates or went on hunger strikes or, you know, did things that many saw as very disruptive, but they felt that after years of trying to negotiate around getting the vote, that was sort of the only way that they were able to accomplish that. And so to me, I think there are really beautiful parallels to what you just said that it's really important that we not judge because different some people walk so that we can run or they defy so that we can negotiate, right?
Emma Addams (17:12)
Yeah, for sure.
Patrick Mason (17:12)
Yeah. I mean the the the suffragists were complete radicals in in in in the d their days, especially at the time. Now now we they're heroes. you know, they're they're sort some of the heroines of of American history and and and British history and other places, but but they weren't at the time. And Vashti was not a hero at at at the time. And I really liked what you said, I mean when w especially as I was studying peace building for the first time in in in graduate school, one of the things we talked a lot about was theory of change. Like what is your theory of change? How do you think that change happens? And there's not just one way. As we look across examples throughout history and and and political movements, nonviolent movements, social movements, they happen in all kinds of ways from open defiance to different different forms of cooperation, you know, violent, nonviolent. I mean there are all these different theories of change.
And and I think one of the things to to think about here and that this story and that the the book of Esther points us to is that there are different theories of change, even you know, among people in in the relatively in in the same context. I'm thinking too, we're recording this the day after Carolyn Pearson died, who is kind of an icon in the Latter day Saint community, and spoke out and spoke up for women, famously she she wrote the memoir about her her husband who who was gay and and then she took care of him when when he died. but she maintained warm and friendly relationships with church leaders, even as she was one of the most outspoken feminists within the church, right? So she had her own theory of change. Everybody's gonna do this in in their own way. And so so how do we see this in this story. I mean Esther now enters the story, so can can you kind kinda help set the stage? And Esther's gonna be kind of a different type of character as she enters this court, as you said, only because of of Vashti's defiance.
Emma Addams (19:06)
And just this will connect us back, but to your to your point about theories of change, you know, in overly simplistic terms, we could look this as an inside game versus an outside game and there's in political change. And so and so Vashti's doing the outside, which is I'm gonna I'm gonna basically, you know, choose not to participate in the current system and I'm going tto and I'm going to shine a light on, you know, on on the on the inequities of it.
Patrick Mason (19:27)
Yeah. I won't be complicit.
Emma Addams (19:31)
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah. And then you have Esther who is you know, a and and whether she came in this way or she evolved and and found herself in this role, she's playing a long a longer inside game and and and again to bring the element of faith back into it, I I know from my experience, like when I pray for inspiration about how to to to do the work we're doing and how to make peace, like I'm given, you know, some pretty good direction about how to do it. So I'm gonna go with Vashti was inspired and Esther was inspired. And they both were inspired in different ways. And so then we have Esther, as we said, is invited in through, let's just acknowledge, kind of an unsavory process as well. She's she's chosen among the king's concubines for her beauty. And she is also brought in as a an object to be adored and and seen and looked at as as as something of beauty. so I think that's important too. Like this is not it's not sanitized not sanitize the story. So she's she's she comes in and and she's through her her beauty and such is is made the king's the new queen. and and clearly the king is a little bit bewitched by her. She is the opposite of Defiant in many ways, right? She's she's she is her uncle. She's an orphan. So the the the her the figure in her life who is guiding her through is, has invited her to come do this. He has brought her to the king. So I I don't I've always wondered how much choice she had in the matter too. I mean, did she feel like this was the only option for her as well.
Jennifer Thomas (21:09)
Was she even given an option? Yeah.
I was going to say to your point, Emma, not only is she a woman and sort of a pawn of the court, but she's obviously part of a sort of very exposed, fragile minority population in the kingdom. And I think that's also really important. That she she is whatever risks she runs, are gonna be disproportionately borne by a group of people that she loves.
Emma Addams (21:31)
we have to assume that she knows what Vashti Vashti did and what happened to her. So she's coming in with a little more information, additional information, and she is savvy enough to know that, you know, especially as as Jen said, is because she's got the kind of the vul a vulnerable population kind of on her back in many ways. she she's gonna have to do things differently. She's not gonna be looking for to defy, but she's gonna be looking for a way to comply, but as we ultimately know in a way that it was transformative, not just for herself, but for an entire people. So spoiler alert she figures it out. But she doesn't know that at the beginning. She's she's coming into a a fairly hostile situation in which there's a lot of unknowns and and a lot of things that could go wrong. So let's give her a lot of credit for entering in this.
Jennifer Thomas (22:18)
There's a there's a specific way of referring to this in kind of peacemaking and conflict transformation, which is managed compliance. Do you want to talk a little bit about that, about the power of managed compliance? because I think there are just as you talked about at the beginning, depending on our character and our background and maybe our sense of personal safety, we tend to judge other people for how they do their peacemaking.
We're like, that person is doing it the right way. They're being bold. They're laying themselves down in the middle of the street. They're fighting for peace by fighting injustice actively. And then there are other people who have to comply, but they're not just complying passively or thoughtlessly, but they're using, they've kind of really been strategic about looking at a system, looking at at the way that they can manipulate the system almost or move within the system to achieve their end. So I'd love to hear you talk a little bit about that. I mean, you said earlier up in the conversation that you're not an open defier. So are you more of an inside managed complier?
Emma Addams (23:19)
Yeah, I I think the difference is agency here. And the difference is is is are you complying out of just like sheer terror and necessity, which maybe Esther was, to be honest. So so so compliance can be forced upon you or it can be a choice. Or are you making an active choice to comply, because of a larger strategic reason and and and I feel find myself doing that regularly in difficult conversations with sometimes elected officials or their staff who are quite angry with with me or with WAG. And, you know, I choose a lot of many of those conversations to kind of allow them to get it all out. And I don't feel weak in those moments because I'm making that choice, right? I'm I'm allowing my lack of response in return to be something that actually is very powerful. Rather, it doesn't feel powerless to me. It actually doesn't feel powerless to me at all to choose to let others be angry with me or to argue with me about all the ways that they're right, and then I make a calculation in there looking into their eyes and and assessing in that moment, is this a complex, is this a moment to have a more complex conversation where I bring forth my opinion? Or is it a moment to just sit and take it and let it happen? But the the difference is again, like I I don't I it by and large, I'm not I'm not feeling unsafe in those situations. I'm just choosing to allow, I'm choosing not to kind of go tip for tap point for point.
It's not the right and and I end up getting a lot of information in those conversations that I wouldn't otherwise if I was constantly interrupting and so I end up getting when I say getting information, it's it's that sounds very transactional. I end up understanding much better what the source of their anger, their frustration, their opinions are. And then I can kind of take that aside or take that away and think about it and then I can either come back to the conversation and say, Hey, I really thought about what you said and here's the part that I agreed with and here's the part that I disagree with. Even after I thought about it, I tried really hard. I just wanted to make sure I'm I'm I I want to make sure I'm being honest about how I felt about what you said. So I I think but for for me that that being able to be in a position where I can do that is the difference. In Esther's situation, she didn't, she she had a couple options at a couple tools at her in at her fingertips and and she chose to go along, to get along for as long as she needed to to put herself in a position of influence and bless her for that, right? Truly.
Patrick Mason (25:59)
I mean it just sounds like as as you talk about your interactions, it it sounds like a a a skill and in some ways kind of a peacemaking one on one skill that is really hard to practice oftentimes, but it's it's listening to learn rather than to win. Right? Oftentimes, I mean I my my my my son's in debate and and you know any any debate coach will will teach their students to listen really carefully to to the other people's argument.
But it's so that you can catch them in an error, so that you can, you know, use their language against them, or where did they miss some something that that that then you can say, aha Right? But it sounds like your listening is of a somewhat different quality than than a high school debate team.
Emma Addams (26:42)
I don’t feel powerless when I listen. I actually feel quite powerful when I listen. I feel like it brings it gives me information that I didn't have before and information is power. And how you use that information matters, right? I'm not like it's it's less about, you know, trying to manipulate them, but more about okay, where like there there there has to be something in this tirade that I can find that I can hold on to and I can use it as a moment of common ground so that we can build from there. There has to be some sort of value they're expressing here. You know, but again, like I have, I just I keep I'm thinking about what I'm just saying, and then I'm thinking about Esther, and I'm just thinking it's a two totally different situations. I mean, hers is is is she has minimal options here and she's doing the best with what she has. I have a lot of options available to me, living in the society we live in and growing up in the family I grew up and having the theology and doctrine that I understand about agency and about empower and women.
And you just it just makes you love her even more when you think of it that way. Both these women, it makes me love them even more. Because their their options were more narrow and they but they had to use them in the most powerful way they possibly could and I think she ultimately does.
Jennifer Thomas (27:51)
So Emma, I love the way you've framed that because you know, as we mentioned a little bit earlier, it's easy to judge other people in the way that they are seeking to bring peace. And so we elevate Esther in this story as we should. She's a remarkable woman. She did a courageous thing, and we see her as a story of courage, right? But I think Vashti also demonstrated a different kind of courage. And and I'm wondering if you could talk to us a little bit about how you see peacemaking in both of these stories. I think one of the reasons people love Esther is because it was just this quiet, gentle, don't rock the boat. That's sort of the misinterpretation sometimes of the limits of peacemaking or what peacemaking looks like, more like peacekeeping, which I don't think she was necessarily doing, but I think that's one of the reasons people like the story. Vashti was doing something different. So how do you see peacemaking in both of these stories?
Emma Addams (28:41)
I think peacemaking can look like what Vashti did and peacemaking can be like enough. I mean that's how I would sum it up. I would sum it up in one word. I see Vashti as as as saying enough. And by doing s by by saying enough and refusing, she is shining a light on a process, a culture, a request that is fundamentally immoral and deeply I w it just just goes against everything that w that we know and we hold dear about the the the value of of the worth of souls, right? She was not being treated as a soul, she was being treated as an object, she was being treated as something to be to be used, to be bargained for, to be, you know, and so she said enough.
And and like and like we talked about earlier, maybe there were some other women who said enough. We don't know. And maybe there were some men who heard that and were like, Yeah, enough. So we we don't get to s we don't get to see, you know, what happened from this. We just know that she was whisked out of the story, never to be seen again. But sometimes peacemaking is like standing with a sign in the middle of the road and saying, Enough, or you know, sitting in at a lunch counter and saying enough or refusing to get off the bus, take your seat. That is I think that's a good way to look at Vashti, that the word enough. And then peacemaking can look like Esther and s it can look like in some ways submission. So you have Vashti who says enough, and you have Esther who's who says I submit. And whether she started out submitting, I don't know. But at some point along the way, sorry, this actually makes me really emotional now that think about it, because at some point along the way, Esther said, I'm submitting myself to this unjust process, this unjust system. I'm gonna keep myself in it because I see something I I at some point I I have to I believe that she I I think she was praying. I think she was praying to God. She and she she saw she saw herself as as her submission as being part of a greater greater good. So both saying enough and submitting, those are both peacemaking and don't let anyone anyone tell you otherwise because we all want and especially when it comes to women, we do this to ourselves and men do it to us. We want to prescribe a particular way of behaving onto our gender that follows you know, what we see as a gentle or meek way of being and sometimes meekness and gentleness is is is not that. It's it's something more powerful. So I'm I'm so proud of both these women. The more I talk about them,
Patrick Mason (31:04)
Mm-hmm.
Emma Addams (31:05)
I'm just like, this is the best book in all of the Old Testament, isn't it?
Patrick Mason (31:10)
How so, how do you know? So again, as as as you've made clear, and it is really important to recognize these women are operating in a context with very little option, you know, very few options, very relatively little freedom, even for a queen, right? Imagine you're not a queen, imagine if you if you're one of the servants or if if if you know something like that. So agency is never unlimited, it's always, you know, in you know, inscribed and and there are always boundaries to our agency based on our context and and you're exactly right in in in our modern context, especially in the United States, we we have almost no matter who you are, you have significantly more freedom and room to operate in your agency. Not ex not totally everybody, but but in general, I think we can say that that in our modern context, we have a lot more space for agencies.
So how do we as when we engage in in peacemaking, whatever that looks like within a family context, a church context, especially thinking about your work with MWEG in a political context, how do you know when it's when it's time to to speak and act and and do the Vashti thing? And how do you know when it's time to sort of build relationships, as you say, intentionally submit, play the long game, you know, to to to to discern and listen to the room, read the room, as you said, not to manipulate the situation, but but but then to know how and when to act. how how do you make that discernment?
Emma Addams (32:39)
I almost wish you didn't ask me this question because it's such a hard it's a really hard one to answer. I can answer it for me personally. Jen and I can talk about in the context of an institution because I think those are two different answers. And I think for me personally, my default stance is for the listening and the kind of the inside and the relationship building in the long term.
That's partly a temperamental thing, it's partly just a learned reality. It's absolutely a function of of having some sort of power in some situations where you have the luxury of being able to do that. when you're when you're running an institution as as Jen and I are, it's a more complicated process.
And it involves, I mean, on on the regular, we have we have women on both sides of an action or a decision MWEG has made, whether our own membership or even our own leadership, who are like over here saying, Enough. Can you just like say the thing? Yeah. Like, right? Who are just like like let's just say the words, let's call it like it is. Let's, I mean, I I don't want to say blow it up because that's that's much more violent. This this act it it this this is a legitimate this is a legitimate way to feel when when there's suffering and when there's when there's when there's when you see powerful people doing things that hurt other people. It's this is not this legitimate, I think our our faith calls us to feel that way. And so when we have women who are, you know, who are like, Why aren't you doing more? Why aren't you saying this thing? Why aren't you pushing harder? And then we have those who are like, You're pushing too hard. You are shrews.
You know, you are women who are who are, you know, getting out of your place. and and and the the the a so the way to handle that is not to like split the difference between the two. So I don't want to make it seem like we're always trying to walk a tightrope where we're trying to please both equally. The answer, and this is what peacemaking ultimately is, is to come up with some sort of solution or idea or statement or action that that neither falls into either of those categories but is something new and creative. So I would say the tension between those two is what oftentimes forces our best work and our most creative work. Right. And I Jen you're just dying to get in here 'cause I I can see so many thoughts because I, this is the reality. We have when we try to just play it safe and follow one stereotypical way or the other, we we don't do as well.
When we allow the tension of those two approaches to kind of feed into our creative process, we end up creating something way more interesting, way more persuasive, and way more new than we would otherwise. And to me, that is like the best type of peacemaking is like the creative process.
Jennifer Thomas (35:18)
And and I'll speak to that both personally and institutionally. I think one of the reasons that Emma and I work well together is I'm tend to be more of a sign in the middle of the road, enough person. And and I think that's reflective of the membership of our organization. So not only are we trying to hold an institution together, but we're holding together an institution that's a grassroots organization made up of thousands of women. There's some Vashtis and there's some Esters.
And I think what we have tried so hard to do, and I hope what this story, the way that Emma has so beautifully laid it out, is that there is there is a time and a place for both. And that when those two groups of people, in our case, two groups of women, hold that space together, work through that tension together, don't just abandon the fight because somebody wants to do it a different way, that is also why the creativity comes out.
That creativity just doesn't generate itself magically because these people were in the same room together. It's because they each brought their own gifts that they were each born for such a time as this, but that doesn't look the same. I think that's the thing that's beautiful about the story to me is I think one of the the things we should take away is we are all born for such a time as this. And we all have something to add. And if we continue to like, criticize the way other people are doing the work rather than saying, how can I do that work alongside them? How can I do that work in harmony with them? how does the way they're doing the work indict me in a good way? Like ask me, am I doing this the right way? Should I transform myself a little bit? I think that is when the magic of of creating something totally new happens. So I think it's possible for that tension to be productive of really, really great things.
Emma Addams (37:01)
I love that I love that you said we're all born for such a time as this. Yeah. This is we're we are all born for such a time as this and we let's not let's not see Esther's situation as it is unique and beautiful and it and it's and it's and it's a story that clearly in the Old Testament was designed with all of the best the you know, literary elements to give you like a really good story. We've got a villain, we've got humor, we've you know, so totally. Yeah.
Patrick Mason (37:22)
Yeah, you got the bad guys, you've got yeah.
Emma Addams (37:25)
Yeah. So I think I think, for that reason it's compelling to us and we should we should use that energy, but at the same time, I love what Jen said about the about for such a time as this for each of us, 'cause I really believe that. I believe that in the power of individual inspiration and peacemaking acts one by one.
Jennifer Thomas (37:43)
So, Emma, let me ask you a question. I think what let's pivot a tiny little bit because I don't want to lose this piece before we finish this conversation. I think we we've talked about the inside game and the outside game. We've talked about you know, to some degree Esther making a decision of of kind of approaching the king, right? Getting herself next to the king. And I think she changes literally history for the Jewish people through relationship, trust, and proximity, right?
And you've hinted at this a little bit in your in your earlier narratives about your your tendency to approach things with curiosity. But I'd love for you to share a little bit about us about why you believe people are more persuadable or why they can understand better when change might be needed or if they if trust has been built through proximity.
Emma Addams (38:31)
Well, let's start with Esther, because it's so interesting as the story progresses. There's a couple of things that I just keep coming back to. One is I think there's at least twice in the story where the king says to her some version of, I would give you half the kingdom if you asked.
Patrick Mason (38:43)
Mm-hmm.
Emma Addams (38:44)
Like I think he says it like two times, at least or it's on record two times. So clearly she did something to earn his trust and adoration beyond just show up and put a put a you know put your crown on, right? So I think that's really interesting to that that that she had you know I don't you know know that you know the exact nature of how she did that but she had she she worked his way into his heart in some way if he has one.
Jennifer Thomas (39:08)
Yeah, affections, yeah.
Emma Addams (39:10)
Yeah, yeah. I mean so so there you go. And so look at the power that she held in that moment. The power where the king could say to her, I'll give you half the kingdom if you just ask me. What is it that you want? What is it you you I know you want something? And then she also in this moment like w where, I think it said that he she hadn't seen him for a while and she goes and like waits outside his you know, the court to see him and he and he listens to her, but it was that was a transgression. So she's so she's clearly gained some some power and influence over time, right? And then we know that then she uses that for for incredible good. and so I think when we talk about power, I just I'm always I love talking about power and I'm also really careful because I say the word power and I think people automatically associate some sort of a greedy n negative like feeling with it. Like when talk about power, you must be trying to get it to do something for yourself or to hurt someone else. And I just don't see, I see power being used in that way all the time. And I think that if you're not thinking about power, you're probably using it in that way. And I stand, I've said that multiple times, and I came back to that statement. If you are not actively thinking about power, how you are accessing and using it, I think you are probably not using it well.
There's nothing wrong, and in fact, I think there's something really wonderful when thinking about power and influence, and every step of the way thinking about what it is that I want that power and influence for. Because we all know that as soon as you get a little bit of it, unless your intentions are consistent and you're constantly disciplined and training yourself, it is the nature of men and women to take that power and use it for themselves or do something with it, right?
Jennifer Thomas (41:07)
Emma, that's the scripture I don't like to double gender. It's okay, we can just leave that one to the men. They can have it.
Emma Addams (41:12)
I know. I I yeah.
Patrick Mason (41:11)
Ha ha ha.
Emma Addams (41:17)
So so yeah, so I so I see Esther as as as as using power, as seeing that she had access to power, figuring out how to use it, and and then obviously choosing to to exercise it in a really ethical and beautiful way. And so I think that's fine a lot of the work we've done with MWEG is, now now now this is gonna be clipped out and someone's gonna put it on Twitter somewhere. But I'm just gonna say it. We have been in the business of trying to amass power in many ways on behalf of a group of women who maybe aren't thinking about it, you know, power and then using it in in ways that intentionally try to bless or bring relief to or invite in or represent the greatest swath of people is possible. And absent that commitment, the tendency will be to take that power and use it for your people or yourself or your family or your tribe or your group. And so and so I I I want to change Latter-day Sun culture in pr in particular. And I want us to talk about power and I want us to talk about women holding power and I want us to acknowledge that we each have the capacity to use it for good or ill and if we don't intentionally check ourselves on the regular and have guardrails around our own personal amassment of power amassing of power, it is our nature such that we'll use it to hurt or just incorrectly.
Patrick Mason (42:39)
Yeah. I wanna ask before we run out of time, there's there's another there's actually a lot of great lines in in Esther, but but right after she she talks about, you know, you know, whether I was born, you know, at you know, such a time as this. I mean that that that that that famous line with and just a couple verses later, she when she makes her decision that she's gonna act, she has this line that that says, And if I perish, I perish. What what does that mean to you?
Emma Addams (43:06)
So I was just thinking about this in the context of what I said by definition of peace was at the beginning. And I to me, those those five words are an expression of faith, of deep faith. Underlying her saying, if I perish, I perish, she's acknowledging that death is not the worst thing that could happen. She's saying that that I care more about, you know, about this moonshot to try to save my people than I care about preserving my own life. and to me that's the sign of a deep, a deep inner peace that then radiates out. I mean, we can feel not peaceful ourselves and still make efforts to keep peace, but our efforts to keep peace externally are like turbocharged and made way more effective by a sense of internal peace. And in my case, what I would call just feeling right with God. I just I have so much more courage in that respect. And I just have less fear of what other people think. And it allows it allows me to do that, to take action that I otherwise probably wouldn't do. So she knew the cost, she weighed the cost, she weighed the cost of speaking up and and she chose to go forward with faith in God and a sense that she was right with him, and I I just love that about her.
Patrick Mason (44:18)
Yeah, and there might be for her it was life and death. For her people it was life and death.
In our spheres of peacemaking, it might not be life and death literally, but but the perishing might be some reputational cost. It might be some relationships, it might be people speaking bad about you on social media and in the newspapers and willfully, either willfully or unintentionally, you know, mischaracterizing you and and and and your work. So there there's lots of forms of perishing the that the that peacemaking might might might entail that that there's a cost. There's there's no guarantees. so for me, I mean that's that's part of the definition of faith is when you don't have a guarantee that things are gonna turn out. and you and you take a step forward anyway.
Emma Addams (45:05)
I don’t see a way to do, practice peacemaking without making people mad. If if we could have found a way to do it without making people mad, I'd be all in for it. Because I don't like making people mad. I'm not like a defiant person. I don't really it doesn't make me feel good necessarily. But I I don't see any way. I don't see any way to do it. Yeah. Yeah.
Patrick Mason (45:20)
Well well, I I can't think of of any historic peace movement that ever did anything, right, that that didn't have its its opponents all the way up to Jesus. Right? If I perish, I perish.
Emma Addams (45:32)
That's different than provoking.
Provoking people would be creating contention for the sake of contention. And that's what the Book of Mormon says don't do over and over again, right? But that's totally different than like setting up conflict.
Or frankly, exposing conflict that's already there, that then the act of peacemaking brings that conflict up to the surface and it erupts. And so it looks like in the short term that you're creating it, but what you've done as a peacemaker is you've exposed the conflict or you exposed the injustice or you've exposed or shined a light on the suffering. and that is that is the uncomfortable, but I think just extraordinarily beautiful part of peacemaking that that we see here in this story and that when we're practicing it we can feel for ourselves.
Jennifer Thomas (46:13)
And to me, I think I I was thinking about that as we were preparing for this conversation. I we've had so many conversations with such remarkable peacemakers. And sometimes professionally that's what they do, that's how they're trained. And others it's just people who are bringing this lens to a very different sphere of work. And I think one of the things that has sort of strikes me as I think back on all of those conversations, underlying all of them was a little bit of this if I perish, I perish. All of those people seemed willing to put themselves, their egos, their their personal ambitions. on the line. It's a way of looking at the world and saying, I want to change the world and I do not need to be at the center of it to do that. I can lose my life to help build a better life for myself and others. And I don't even mean that from a death perspective. Sometimes that's certainly true, but sometimes it just true peacemaking, I think, really does require this call us that we obey this call from Christ that if we want to find our lives, we have to lose it in some way. And and peacemaking is a call to lose ourselves in a work that is transformational and brings good to other people. so I I just I'm as we've been preparing for this, I've just been thinking, Vashti ha must have had this in her head, Esther had this line in her head, and I think it really runs through a version of it, runs through the heads of all peacemakers that I am willing to sacrifice something to achieve a a bigger good. so let's let me ask you a question before we give our final one, which is what gives you hope that courageous, compassionate voices can still have an impact and that there are people out there with this line running through their head? Because we live in a really selfish, self-centered world.
What is signaling to you that there are people out there saying gently and quietly to themselves, if I perish, I perish?
Emma Addams (48:01)
Yeah, I mean, there's so many examples within our own MWEG and Mormon community, but for a moment I I'm gonna answer this question in the context of the larger work that Jen, you and I do within this larger pro-democracy peace building, bridge building community in the US, which is robust and beautiful and vibrant and and courageous and so and and s we just have this just distinct privilege of spending time with so many people you know be who are who are not members of our faith, who are members of a different faith or of no faith or, you know, whatever who who are running counterculture to the prevailing polarization, hatred, tribalism, partisanship, that is that is everything is seems to be telling us that we need to go towards. And they're standing up to their own people. You know, I'm seeing progressives stand up to fellow progressives and say no to things and no to ways of being and no to policies and no to technique to tactics and such that that don't align with their values. I'm seeing conservatives do the same, I'm seeing independents. Like we're it it takes a lot, lot of courage to kind of stand up to your own people, the people who who are considered to be your tribe. And and and in a time of kind of like shifting political alliances, that's happening all over the place. And so it's actually really cool to see because it's in some ways it's this like act of defiance, but on the other side of it they're finding we're all kind of finding each other and we're all just like, this is so much better. I'm so much happier now. Look at us. We can do this and we just have to, the trick is, how to figure out ways for those like quiet, beautiful, peaceful, courageous voices to rise above the the the yelling and the polarization and that's and that's hard to do, but it exists and we work with them every single day. And so it's actually really it's actually really hard for me to feel down for too long, even when I'm in the midst of some yucky stuff. I just, I attend another meeting and I look at the faces of those people. We run a meeting today, Jen, look at the faces of those people on our call and I'm like, We are in good company here.
Jennifer Thomas (50:08)
We can do this.
Emma Addams (50:10)
We can do it.
Patrick Mason (50:10)
Hmm. That's amazing. well we we we could keep going. There's so much more to say about Esther, about about your your work and everything that you're doing, Emma. but as as we wrap up, the work you do is hard, as you say. It oftentimes brings about conflict. You're working in conflict spaces. if if these these things were all sorted and everything was easy and just and loving, you you may not have to be doing all this work. So so it's it's hard and I think it's important to acknowledge that. In the midst of all of that, at the end of a hard day, at or at the beginning of what you know is gonna be a hard day, or a hard week, or a hard month or year, where do you find peace?
Emma Addams (50:49)
This is a really interesting question from to ask me in this moment. because I have a right now I have a formula that's working really well for me. because I've I've had just some some personal health challenges over the past few months. I've I'm almost to the end of active treatment for breast cancer. And while I have it's early stage and I'm gonna be fine, I've still had to manage you know, a lot of things, surgery and the start radiation and recovery and just the fear and I've had periods of time waiting for tests where I've been fearful. So I'm I am in a period of time that has been singular for me. So I'm gonna answer this personally because I but I think it also applies to the larger work. And the formula for me right now that's working is a combination of moving and stillness.
And alternating those as appropriate. So I have started meditating for the first time in my life, and it has been an extraordinary experience for me. I am not someone who necessarily is a big sit sit-still type human. Because if I'm reading or playing the piano, right? I don't sit to do with nothing is like a whole thing. But it turns out meditation really is something. And it turns out that breathing and being aware of your breath it can really change you. So I've been trying to make sure I have lots of moments of stillness. I recognize that I'm in a unique period of time. I hope I'm in a unique period of time. Please let it be a unique period of time. And so taking the time to write about it, to think about it, and to breathe has just been essential for me. But on the flip side, as I've recovered from a couple surgeries and as I've been like, I'm not allowed to lift weights, I'm not allowed to go hike up the mountains and all these things that I'm super annoyed with my doctors for telling me I can't do, but I recognize I can't do them.
What saves me is walking.
I mean, I just walk all over my neighborhood. I walk in the morning and I walk in the evening. It's been too hot to walk during the day. And I mean, everyone sees me. They're always like, Emma, I saw you out walking. What are you doing? And I just walk and I just walk and I walk and I walk and I like walk out my I don't know, I just it just helps me like moving my body just helps me walk out my frustration and it helps me come back to feeling like some peace. And it helps me remember that I my body is strong and good too, right? Because that's been kind of up-ended with with this diagnosis.
So you know, that's that's what's working for me right now, and I have a feeling that's probably gonna be for the rest of my life two habits that that really allow me to feel peace in the midst of of a tumultuous time. and I think they're they're frankly for me, they're equally important. I need those two things to kind of balance, balance me out.
Patrick Mason (53:17)
Amazing. Thank you so much for joining us. It's just been a great conversation.
Emma Addams (53:21)
Thank you.
Jennifer Thomas (53:22)
Love you to bits, Emma.
Emma Addams (53:24)
Right back at ya.
Jennifer Thomas (53:31)
Thanks for listening to this episode of "Proclaim Peace." To hear more, you can subscribe on a podcast app of your choice or on YouTube. You can always find full show notes or transcriptions at proclaimpeace.org.
Patrick Mason (53:44)
"Proclaim Peace" is a partnership between MWEG and Waymakers. You can learn more about Waymakers at waymakers.us. Thanks again for listening and we’ll see you next time.
