"Proclaim Peace" Season 2, Episode 18 // How Collaborative Peacemaking Turns Complaints Into Real Change, With Bethany Brady Spalding
Listen on Spotify or Apple Podcasts, or watch on YouTube.
Bethany Brady Spalding joins Jen and Patrick to explore the story of the daughters of Zelophehad in Numbers 27 and what it teaches about peaceful problem-solving, courageous advocacy, and collaborative leadership. The conversation centers on how asking a thoughtful question, offering a solution, and trusting the process can help change systems without defaulting to anger or conflict.
Chapters
[3:52] Bethany’s definition of peace: progress toward God’s vision
[5:26] Discovering overlooked stories of women in scripture
[8:49] The daughters of Zelophehad and their inheritance claim
[12:45] Moses as a model for listening and responsive leadership
[15:07] Finding possibility during seasons of change
[17:15] Peaceful advocacy and creating space for women’s voices
[20:11] Why collaboration strengthens peacemaking
[23:31] Building community coalitions through the Health Access Project
[26:27] Diane Nash and the power of a moral question
[29:10] Pairing hard questions with practical possibilities
[33:35] Navigating tension between preserving and changing systems
[39:12] Why Bethany approaches injustice one issue at a time
[43:14] Managing fear when speaking to power
[45:00] Bethany’s pathway to finding peace
Transcript
Patrick Mason (00:00)
Hi everyone, welcome to the "Proclaim Peace" podcast, where we talk about how we can learn to be better peacemakers by engaging with the scriptures. I am Patrick Mason. I'm here with my great friend Jen Thomas. How are you doing, Jen?
Jennifer Thomas (00:11)
I'm doing better, Patrick. For those of you that are our diligent followers, you notice that we took a two-week hiatus. And the reason we did that is because I needed to have a little emergency surgery on my eye. And the sad thing is that we really hoped to make this a pirate themed episode. Really lean into the the peacemaking of piracy, because I am a one-eyed monster. But you can't hear that. But we decided we were gonna stick with our original theme and stay with the Old Testament. So we're doing that today.
Patrick Mason (00:37)
Yeah. I thought we were going with the Odyssey cyclops. because it was so hot like this this summer. Everybody loved the Odyssey.
Jennifer Thomas (00:40)
Yeah. there you go. It would have been more in the time frame of the Old Testament, at least closer to it than yeah.
Patrick Mason (00:47)
Right.
Jennifer Thomas (00:49)
But today we are really excited to bring you a story that we think illustrates beautifully the whole reason that we initially started to do this podcast. And it is the idea that the scriptures that we read so regularly and we read in a very particular way that we get used to either avoiding some stories or seeing some stories and and what we do read, we read with a very particular lens. That that once we start to do what our the brethren have asked us to do and approach the world as peacemakers, one of the things that we the whole reason we want this podcast to exist is because we believe that it offers you, as our listeners, the opportunity to see that the scriptures are rich with stories of how people have decided to solve conflict and approach problems in ways that are much more reflective of the pattern the savior set than they are reflective of the pattern that the world set. And we've got one of those stories for you today.
Patrick Mason (01:41)
Yeah, so we're we're excited about this. And there's also not very many opportunities in my life when I get to say Zelofehad multiple times. And so this this episode is a gift on on multiple levels.
Jennifer Thomas (01:53)
And all of you who listen all the way through to the end will know that I just decided I wasn't gonna say it. Cause I make a fool of myself often enough that I didn't need to add to any recorded examples of that. So I just avoided the word. But it's a great story, you guys, and we're really excited to have you listen to it.
Patrick Mason (02:12)
We try to coach against conflict avoidance, but word avoidance is is is is okay.
Jennifer Thomas (02:16)
Is tolerated.
Patrick Mason (02:18)
And we should say we're very glad that that that you're back, Jen, and and starting to do better.
Jennifer Thomas (02:23)
Thank you.
Patrick Mason (02:25)
So I'm excited about the guests that that that we have to to have this conversation with us. I've been friends with Bethany Brady Spalding for for many years. I first got to know her through some of her books. She has these amazing books that that she's co-authored with MacArthur Krishna.
These have been published with Deseret Book and and are incredible. a lot of them are children's books. So like "Girls Who Choose God," stories about girls from the scriptures, they're really empowering. I love her books, "A Girl's Guide to Heavenly Mother" and "A Boy's Guide to Heavenly Mother," which are incredible. We have those, we've read those with our kids. but I also know that that Bethany is not just an author, she's an incredibly active and energetic presence in her community.
She has in the different places that she's lived, she's worked on on, you know, really improving her communities and bringing about, you know, positive social change on issues all the way from public health to she does tons of community service. she's very active with the the Just Serve initiative. She's also very embedded in the interfaith community in Northern Virginia, where she lives. And so she really believes in the power of collaboration and partnership between men and women, but also among people of different faiths.
And so we're so excited we couldn't think of anybody better to come and help sort of unpack and reveal this beautiful story from the Old Testament to help us think about how to be better peacemakers in our communities.
Jennifer Thomas (03:41)
Welcome, Bethany. We are so happy to have you with us today.
Bethany Brady Spalding (03:44)
Such a joy. Thank you for inviting me.
Jennifer Thomas (03:46)
We want to start the way we do with all of our guests by level setting this conversation with a simple question. How do you define peace?
Bethany Brady Spalding (03:53)
That's a very provocative question and and a big one.
Jennifer Thomas (03:55)
It is.
Bethany Brady Spalding (03:57)
But as I was reflecting on the story that we're going to discuss today, I realized for me, a sense of peace is a sense of comfort that I am making progress on creating the world that God intends for all of us. And not not perfectly achieved it, but that we have momentum and movement and progress towards what God desires for us. That's what brings me the greatest sense of peace.
Patrick Mason (04:19)
I actually love that definition, this this sense of there's work to be done, right? But but but I feel peace in doing the work, right?
Bethany Brady Spalding (04:28)
Yes, yes.
Patrick Mason (04:29)
Peace is not like some like final destination or is you know, the vacation I get to go on after all the work is done or something like that. But but but you can find peace in the work. I love that.
Bethany Brady Spalding (04:39)
Yes, it's the joy of the journey.
Jennifer Thomas (04:41)
I think that as Latter-day Saints, we tend to ha be a checklist kind of people and we're only feel satisfied once something is accomplished and done. And I love the way that you framed the definition in a way that the work might never be done, but you find peace in the process. So I think that was really lovely. Thanks for sharing that.
Bethany Brady Spalding (04:55)
That's a great question. We should all answer it for ourselves. I I I thank you so much.
Patrick Mason (04:59)
Yeah so I'm also excited about this story that that that we're gonna gonna be talking about. You know, much of this season will be we've been talking about like kind of the famous stories that everybody knows from the Old Testament, Adam and Eve and Noah and and and the Ark and Abraham and you know and and and Esther and and and some of these other luminaries of of of the Old Testament. And I'm excited, I I think sometimes especially because the Old Testament is like such a big book, right? That that sometimes we miss like these hidden gems inside of it because we hop from highlight to highlight highlight. We have like the top ten that that we always do. So, so Bethany, I want to help help us help frame our conversation here by giving us a sense of like how did you discover this story of the daughters of Zelophehad. And and and we'll maybe we'll start there before we actually dive into the story itself.
Bethany Brady Spalding (05:49)
Okay, well thank you. And like you, I hadn't heard of this story before, which sh is shocking to me now, right? But years ago, my daughter, my oldest daughter Simone, I was reading her a board book of children's stories from from the Bible and just sharing her these sacred texts and how much they meant to me. And we went through all the stories, and I shut the book and she looked up at me with her big inquisitive eyes and she said, Mom, where were the stories of the girls? And I was, you know, I was in my thirties and yet she and I hadn't really noticed that, and that there was no story focused on a woman's experience. And but she was three and she could already see that she wasn't she wasn't reflected in that in that storybook. And so it was a great question. So I was like, let me go and find you a book. And in searching on at the time, we couldn't find a book for about women of the scriptures for girls. There were a lot written for women, but not for children. And so long story short, Deseret Book invited my friend MacArthur and I to create a book of women in the scriptures for children.
Patrick Mason (06:46)
Which is an amazing book, by the way. yeah.
Jennifer Thomas (06:48)
It really is. Yes.
Bethany Brady Spalding (06:50)
Thank you. And we started off with a volume about from the Bible and we had it all ready to go, but we needed one more story. for like the laying out and the pages and the numbers, we needed one more story. And of course there's a plethora of stories of women in the Bible who were outrageously awesome and courageous and bold and faithful and all these things. But we were writing for children and so we wanted a story
Jennifer Thomas (07:10)
I was just gonna say that a lot of those stories are probably not Deseret Book stories. Yeah, they are spicy.
Bethany Brady Spalding (07:16)
Well there can be some spicy ones, for sure. For sure. There are complex characters.
Jennifer Thomas (07:20)
The women in the Old Testament were bringing it. They were
Bethany Brady Spalding (07:23)
That's right. I like it. You're right. You're right.
But we needed one more, and because we were writing for young an audience, we wanted a story of of younger girls. and so we had one story we needed to find and we had a deadline, and it was a fast Sunday, and I fasted and prayed that we would discover the story that needed to be in this book. And in the middle of my fast, I went down to my office and I opened up my scriptures, and there was this story of the daughters of Zelophehad.
And I, like you, Patrick, like I I have loved the scriptures for decades. I had grown up in the church, I had gone to seminary, I'd studied the Old Testament at BYU, I had gone to institute, I had I had devoured the scriptures and had never encountered the story. And I was like, How did we miss this? How is this not on all of our radar? How is you know, and because there's I have worked in kind of the working for the common good and advocating for the common good and solving problems and coming up with solutions and creating change in our communities. And like these women were doing it. And so it was such like an epiphany and such a beautiful discovery of the story. and I'd love to share some of it together and read some of it if we can.
Jennifer Thomas (08:28)
Yeah. Let's let's talk about it. Cause I think you're probably right that your experience is not unusual, that a lot of our listeners might not even be aware of this story. So let's we're gonna spend a little bit of time digging in.
Bethany Brady Spalding (08:38)
Yeah. Do you want do you want me to dive in and it's and it's it's so it's in numbers
Patrick Mason (08:39)
So where d yeah, yeah, go for it. Where do we find it?
Bethany Brady Spalding (08:42)
it's so it's in numbers chapter twenty-seven.
Patrick Mason (08:45)
That could be the first problem. How many people have read numbers all the way to chapter twenty-seven?
Jennifer Thomas (08:47)
How many people have read numbers? It's like let's just skip through numbers.
Bethany Brady Spalding (08:52)
Get to this chapter. You want to get to this chapter? So it's a story about Zelophehad who had left Egypt and was following Moses and wandering through the wilderness for the forty years, and he had five daughters.
They were Mahla, Noah, Hogla, Milka, and Tirza. it never says their age, but historians often think that because they were unmarried, they were probably young, probably teenagers. So we had these five young girls, but while they were traversing through the wilderness, Zelophehad passed away. He died. And the law at the time was that if a man died and didn't have any sons, he couldn't pass down his inheritance. And so these five daughters realized their dad had been faithful, they had been faithful, they had journeyed, they'd followed the prophet, they had wandered through the wilderness, they with grand hopes of arriving in the promised land. And they realized that the the law at the time was saying that they couldn't inherit a parcel of land. And that didn't sit right with them, right? They they, I think, these were girls with a strong moral compass. These were girls that had this resolute sense of what was right and a God that was no respecter of persons and a believer that all are alike unto God and
Jennifer Thomas (09:55)
And that he kept his promises and promises had been made to their family, yeah.
Bethany Brady Spalding (09:57)
Yes. Yes, yeah. thank you, Jen. That's a beautiful insight. Yes. Right. And so they knew that that wasn't right. And so this short chapter gives this beautiful story of that these girl these young girls, they go to Moses and the priest and all the princes and the congregation at the doors of the tabernacle, and they come to him and and they say, Our father died in the wilderness. and they explain the story. They make it personal, they tell them.
The story of their dad. But then what I love about this example and what I've I've learned from this story as a framework of solving problems, they first ask a really heartfelt, genuine question. In verse four, they say, Why should the name of our father be done away from among his family? Because he has no sons. So we they ask a really provocative question that that kind of highlights and illuminates this problem. And almost like it's so obvious that we should fix this, right? Like, like.
Why should this be the way it is? Right? so they ask a heartfelt question, and then they offer a solution, right? They say, give us therefore a possession among the brethren of our fathers. and then this is you know, so I t honor their courage. I love how they approached the decision makers with courage and strength, but humility. They make it personal, they plead their case, they ask this question, they offer solution.
Then I love what Moses does. Moses takes their ideas to the Lord. And I don't I I'm not a scholar like the two of you, but I think it's fascinating. I don't know many times in the Bible where God is quoted, right? But it says right here, and the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, The daughters of Zelophehad speak right. Right? So God is affirming, like, yes, these young girls are right. Thou shalt surely give them Yes. Yes, right.
Jennifer Thomas (11:38)
Put it on a t shirt. The daughters speak right.
Patrick Mason (11:40)
Yeah.
Bethany Brady Spalding (11:42)
Right. It's so fabulous, right? and then God continues, Thou shalt surely give them a possession of an inheritance among their father's brethren, and thou shalt cause the inheritance of their father to pass unto them. And and I mean it's beautiful, right? That that because of their identifying this problem, coming to the us decision makers, pleading their case in a personal, thoughtful way, asking a question that highlights this this issue, and then offering a solution, their life is changed, but then they goes on to this shouldn't just be for this case of girls. This should we should change the law for everyone because this is unfair. Right? This this doesn't reflect a God who loves all. Right. And and so through this encounter they changed the law of the land and the destiny and of you know people from time time forward. Right. So it's a powerful story.
Patrick Mason (12:28)
Yeah, I love that. There's so many parts. So I w I wanna pull out different parts of it. One of the things that I notice is as as they go to this is when they when they bring their case to to Moses, this is actually a good example of leadership, especially like male leadership. And we can think about this in the church, right? He he doesn't say, No, this is kind of the way th we've always done things, or like, let me go look at the handbook, right? to to find a reason to say no.
Jennifer Thomas (12:54)
Or even to be offended they dared ask, right? By by even how dare you ask, right?
Patrick Mason (12:57)
Exactly. How dare you ask to yeah, to to change the way things work, like who who are you, right? To to ask this, whether whether implicit or explicit to say that. he he he's he immediately responds and takes the case to the Lord, right? He he does he doesn't know, right? he he doesn't make the decision right away, but he takes the case of the Lord. He believes them, he he listens to them, he trusts them enough, and to to say actually, that is a pretty good question. Let me see what go God has to say about that.
Bethany Brady Spalding (13:28)
And I'm so glad you bring that up, Patrick, because right right now I'm working on a project with a group of women that's going to be launched at Restore. It's a toolkit for male and women leaders in the church on how to collaborate and more fully and partners. And it is interesting, like we're writing tools for men and for women, right? Because we both need to progress in this area where women need to be encouraged to find their voice, speak up, offer their suggestions, offer their insights, their perspectives that are uniquely their own. And we need male leaders to invite, encourage, understand, respect women's stewardship and their insights and their personal revelation and for their for their the work that they do. And so I I like that this is not an only example for young girls to stand up with their ideas and suggestions for solving problems, but it's a beautiful example of male leaders to to listen and learn and take it to God and be beautifully surprised that that women could have new insights that they didn't have.
Patrick Mason (14:19)
Yeah. And and maybe the the reason why those answers hadn't already been written in the law is because they hadn't asked the right questions yet, right? Or they they hadn't listened to women asking the questions, right?
Bethany Brady Spalding (14:31)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Patrick Mason (14:33)
that it was it was men in a room asking lots of really good questions about how how to do things. but but the process itself of asking the questions hadn't included all the voices and all the questions. So then the answers that came were true and good and and worked, but but they they didn't answer all the questions because all the questions hadn't been asked yet.
Bethany Brady Spalding (14:51)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Thomas (14:52)
And one of the things I also love about the story is just this idea that sometimes there are I don't know, when a society is undergoing great transition, which the children of Israel, right, we're they're in a moment of transition, those are moments of great stress. And in those in societies like that, leaders can respond in one way or two ways. They can either decide they're gonna hyper control in a moment of stress.
Or they can say, hey, this is a new opportunity for us to think about things differently. We're creating something different. We're doing something different. And and I love the idea that Moses, to Patrick's point, recognized that he had this opportunity and that he was in constant dialogue with the Lord to say, well, just because something was doesn't mean that in this new world that we're creating is the way that it should be. And if, you know, whatever inheritance looks like, whatever, that is spiritual as well as temporal. And we need to be considering with the Lord you know, we've left behind what all of those rules were in Egypt, and now we need to figure out what it's like in this new land. And so I I think that's also a really good message to us that when we find ourselves in moments of great transition and stress, the way of peace is to really open ourselves up to possibilities and ask questions and be willing when people come to us and say, Hey, this is opening a lot of issues. And instead of responding with anxiety and stress, say, I I want to hear you. Let's see if we can make things better.
Bethany Brady Spalding (16:13)
That's so beautifully said, Jen. That's that's so exquisite. Yes. And I think for all of us to have the understanding that we live in a fallen world, right? And that we are all we are living beneath our what God desires for us. And so we're all wrestling and grappling and supporting and working together to become to a more divine existence. And if we all can listen and learn and and believe that where we are right now isn't where we're intended and meant to and it ultimately will be.
And so let's work together yeah to make things better. That's the bumper sticker that I want. You want the t-shirt. I want I want a bumper sticker. Let's work together to make things better. That that's that's my slogan. I say it to everybody all the time.
Jennifer Thomas (16:46)
Your yours yours is nicer, so we'll do yours.
Patrick Mason (16:48)
Yeah.
Bethany Brady Spalding (16:51)
But can I tell you that when we so so that was the last story in this book, and when we finished it, Kathy Peterson, a an amazing Utah-based artist, did the artwork for this book, Girls Who Choose God. And I've had a picture of the daughters of Zelophehad in our living room for years and just this powerful symbol. I have three girls and I just love them seeing this. and at the end of every story, let's see, maybe maybe I don't know if this will work, but here's here's the daughters speaking to Moses. but at the end of every story in this book, we asked a question for the readers to try to recognize like you're not that different from these incredible women and girls in the in the Bible. And so at the end of this story, we had asked the question, when have you chosen to solve a problem peacefully?
And you know, it was interesting when my my closest neighbor as I was reading this book was Jewish. And when I showed her the book and she saw that question at the end, she's like, it's a little bit of a softball question. Why didn't you ask, like, when have you advocated for injustice? Or why didn't you like, she's like, why didn't you make something just a little bit feistier? And and it was interesting. At the I was like, you know what, I actually think solving a problem peacefully is really, really hard, right? it's angry it's easier to get angry and feisty.
And blame people and and knock people down and complain. it's a lot harder to peacefully identify problems and work to solutions together. and so this story kind of became the inspiration and kind of the model and framework of how we decided as co-authors to use this book. And you know, at the time the conference center, our we had brought our families to the conference center and there were no images of women anywhere in the conference center. And you know, we could have written a really nasty article, like kind of shaming the church that, you know, we've created this our this is our sacred gathering space, but then there's no there's no images of women anywhere, really? Like, but instead we decided let's go to the art curators here and say, like, ask a question. Like, our daughters come, make it personal.
Jennifer Thomas (18:36)
Why is this? Yeah.
Bethany Brady Spalding (18:38)
Let's make it personal. Our daughters love to come here. you know, wouldn't it be beautiful?
For girls to see themselves and spiritual, see their spiritual authority in this place. And so we worked together and the church bought this art. And for years, these images of the daughters of Zelophehad and all these other women and girls from the scriptures and from the Bible hung in the in the like the four year of the conference center for years. And girls could come in and see themselves. and it was so, so beautiful, right? we also went to the church curriculum and correlation department and said,
You know, it would be easy to just really complain that I was serving as primary president at the time, that in our fifty-two weeks of lessons there were maybe three girls mentioned, right? And I could quit the calling, I could, you know, I could, you know, I could boycott primary, right, right? But you know, we said like let you know, wouldn't it be beautiful? Wouldn't it be encouraging, wouldn't it inspiring if our girls could have lessons about women in the scriptures, and not just our girls, but our boys.
Now, wouldn't it be amazing to draw strength and inspiration from these women? We had that meeting 11 years ago this fall, and solving problems can be slow, right? But it is so exciting that the young women now have a curriculum where they're studying women in the scriptures, right? And by no means do I I take responsibility for that or or or but but was part of the questioning and asking and encouraging to make, to help solve that problem, right? And and and seeing the excitement of the solution coming.
Jennifer Thomas (20:04)
Well, I was just gonna ask, I one of the things that intrigues me about the story, and I might be barking up a wrong tree. So you go ahead and if you're like I don't think this is true, Jen. it it intrigues me that he didn't have one daughter, but he had five. And I'm just wondering if you feel like, particularly for women, or the way you see them solving problems, or the way you see them practicing peaceful solutions to problems, if doing that in a collective, in a group, if having multiple voices empowers them more or maybe you know, allows them to ask questions that they might have not asked alone.
Bethany Brady Spalding (20:39)
That's beautiful insight. Wow, I'm learning so much from both of you. Alright, this is so thrilling. but I think you're right, right? I think you know, a beautiful LDS idea is that God is collaborative, right? We believe in a partnered God, we believe in heavenly parents that co-create and co-preside, like that work together. And so I think that is our model of divine working. And so it makes sense that we do our greatest work, our fullest work, in collaboration with each other. And I do I do think.
Women do that well, right? I've been a I would never have written these books on my own. I co-authored them with MacArthur. Like having a partner with different strengths and insights and approaches and that beautiful tandem dance we do as partners, is I think a really, really a force to accomplish the the work of of peacemaking. Great insight.
Jennifer Thomas (21:23)
Yeah, and I would love to hear Patrick's thought on this too, because I I do really think that peacemaking is extraordinarily difficult to do alone. It's it's, you know, we've got this image of warriors that are the great guy on the white horse or that they're the lone leader. I think peacemaking has a different leadership model and it has a different kind of power aggregation model. So I don't know, Patrick, you've obviously been so immersed in this. I'd love to hear your thoughts on it too.
Patrick Mason (21:51)
I completely agree. I mean it is and the I mean, we we we can think about the heroic individuals, partly just that's the way we've been conditioned to tell stories. The Gandhi, the Martin Luther King, right? The the you know, the mother Teresa, something like that. And and it's useful for us to tell stories around, you know, truly remarkable individuals. But even those individuals wouldn't have been so remarkable had they not been situated within a community of other remarkable people, right? Who are oftentimes nameless, who don't get their names recorded and and but but are absolutely instrumental in creating change. But and there's so much there's you know there's there's strength in numbers, there's there's the protection that comes from that. There's a sense that it isn't just one person complaining, that actually that this is a broader issue that affects more people. and and it's you know and for them to rely on that because it is so hard.
And and for them to strategize together. That's I I love what you talk about there, Bethany, in terms of like talking with with other people, like how do we do this? Right. And like did they sit around, did those five daughters sit around and think, like, how are we gonna approach this, right? How what's the best way for us to approach Moses?
Bethany Brady Spalding (22:57)
Who's gonna talk first? Who's who's who's gonna who's gonna talk second? Right, right.
Jennifer Thomas (22:59)
Yeah.
Patrick Mason (23:00)
And and like that kind of exactly, that kind of strategic thinking and problem solving, the creativity that comes with that.
There's a lot that come up, you know, as in in in groups, the wisdom of the group that that in you know, ideally is greater than the wisdom of the of just one soul sole individual.
Bethany Brady Spalding (23:18)
That's so true. And can I tell you another story that's it's not church-based, but it's community-based, about how I do think that peacemaking and change making is definitely collaborative coalition-building work. and this was a story from years ago, but this was really my first experience in seeing how this kind of model of change happened and and had such tremendous impact. Where I had studied public health and and and did global health all over the world and then move back to Salt Lake City. And it was at the time where there was an influx of refugees coming, of immigrants, and there was a big issue of healthcare in in Salt Lake. And you know, healthcare and who should and how should we access healthcare is a wildly divisive topic, right? People have been arguing about this for decades, right? and and people march, people protest, people advocate and and all all these methods. I want to say here too that all the methods for change, I honor and respect.
And admire, and that there's so many different tools and so many different approaches that are needed at different times. So I'm not dismissing any of them by any means. I'm just with my gifts and skill sets, this approach is what is been what I have seen bear the most fruits in my life. But but I know that but just to state that, like that accessing healthcare was highly controversial, right? but we realize that these thousands of people, because they didn't have a primary, they didn't they were uninsured, they didn't have a primary care home, they were mainly accessing health care at the hospital emergency rooms, right? Which is not great for patients. You don't get comprehensive care. A lot of them didn't speak English, they're not getting good support. And it's also incredibly expensive for the healthcare system to do that in the hospital, right? So some friends and I decided this is a perfect scenario. We've got this big issue, we've got this big problem. What could we do to bring people together to come up with this with you know, and and it's a national crisis, right? Health access to healthcare. But what would we do on the local level? What how could we solve this? So we brought together a coalition of all the hospitals in Salt Lake City, the universities, pharmacies, the Utah Medical Association, brought all these people together and said and and made it personal, you know, like I'm seeing people that I know and love suffer and sometimes die because we're not getting care. Now what can we do? Like like and and also asking the question, you know, that heartfelt question.
Do we really think that people shouldn't be cared for as humans? And can we come up with a better way to do this? And so we started an initiative called the Health Access Project, where all hospitals in Salt Lake offered to give free care. 500 doctors agreed to see patients for free, pharmacies offered their free services, students offered their interpretation services, social workers helped, and without too many more details, but we were able to create something working together and collaboratively that gave thousands of people incredible life-saving care and at the same time saved money for the whole system. Right? And that that to me was the example of a divisive issue can make people angry and make people complain, but unless we build consensus, build collaborations, work together, identify things we can all agree on, and get super creative on how to do it, you know, it can extraordinary things can happen.
Patrick Mason (26:14)
I love that. so when as we were reading the story and and talking about it, I I was thinking about one of my favorite stories and one of my heroes from the civil rights movement is a woman named Diane Nash. And real quickly, I mean, this is 1960, it was in Nashville, this this is before a lot of the the civil rights movement. I mean like Brown v. Board had happened and a couple of things had happened, but but the civil rights movement still was kind of picking up steam. So so it was this group of students in Nashville who had been studying nonviolence and figuring out what they were gonna do. And so they started, you know, de to to desegregate the lunch counters in in downtown Nashville.
And they did this nonviolently and very peacefully, for for several months. And it was kind of building and building the kind of tension and the and the pressure and so forth. and then and then of course some of the community members lashed out with violence. There was a bombing at the home of one of the attorneys who was working with them, and and this sparked a a crowd, an angry crowd, right, of African Americans who marched to City Hall.
And you know, demanding their rights, demanding justice, and we've just had this bombing, like we're we're we're we're so sick of this. And and one of the leaders of the movement got up on the the court steps with the mayor and was just reading of the riot act, right? You know, and and everything he said was true, right? About all the injustices that were being done. And the mayor was kind of stonewalling and so forth. And then Diane Nash, this student who'd been studying and thinking and marching and sitting, you know, all these months.
She saw what was happening, like nothing was was moving. They were just just people were entrenched, right? In their positions, and she she just went up to the mayor and very thoughtfully asked a question of him. She just she said, Do you think it's morally right for stores to deny lunch service to people just based on the color of their skin? She just asked a question, right? Do you think it's morally right? For for this to happen. And he paused, and this was all caught on camera, TV cameras were rolling. And he said, No, I don't. Right? And so, so it was all these different things, but it was this woman just asking this question, right? Just like the daughters are doing here. Sometimes it is like just asking the questions of like,
Do we think it's right? Now that doesn't solve everything. Then they had, you know, that there was a movement that had to happen. They had to then figure out, you know, just like healthcare, right? There's a lot of complicated things. But just starting with a good question, but also not being afraid of asking a hard question. So so tell me it how you think about that, Bethany. Sometimes these questions that we ask that do we know are disruptive to the way things are, right? They can cause people to be uncomfortable. They can even cause conflict in a sense, right? It's easier to just let things alone.
Right, but asking tough questions actually causes conflict. So, how do you think that as a as a peacemaking strategy that that doesn't like box people into a corner? Right, but actually allows them to have the kind of moral reflection to that that is constructive for change.
Bethany Brady Spalding (29:16)
Yeah. Well, I I'm so glad you shared that story. And could we have like that image at the beginning of the podcast? Could we could you give a little highlight of that? Seriously, I've never I've never heard that that story or I don't know that I want to watch that footage. That's so beautiful. I love it. And yes, that ch we're she was channeling the daughters of Zelophehad and asking that pointed question, right? so you're right. I think the questions want to be carefully crafted, right? We don't want to ask questions that just seem rhetorical and just seem angry and trying to put people up against a wall and trying to like examine or even like highlight what people are doing wrong, right? But I truly believe that most people find joy in doing what's right and that most people want to be part of the solution. You know, most people, if shown away or given an opportunity, want to step into that. So for me it's pairing the question with possibilities.
Right. So it's not just it's not just the question is a great prompt, but then we have to show like and we can do this, right? So just like the daughters of Zelophehad they said, you know, why should my father's name not be why should our family not get an inheritance? And it's like, you can do this. We can change the law to give it to girls. And so I think from I I hope that answers your question, but like the question has to be paired with an offering of a solution that invites that person to step in and in my experience, most people do. Right? No one wants to be the bad person. No, no, I mean, right? We we all want to be co-creators in in making the world that God intends for us. No matter what our spiritual perspective is. I think that's inherent in us as a human family, right?
Patrick Mason:
I love that because we've all been in meetings. It's frustrating to be with colleagues or other people who just come in and complain about the way that things are, right? And this has often been me, right? But that's very different than asking a constructive question, a thoughtfully crafted question and saying, and here's an option of what we... Why is it this way? Right? So putting that on the table for consideration, right? So being constructive in the way that we do that.
Bethany Brady Spalding:
Right. Well, and I think there's curiosity on both ends that I, again, to highlight what Patrick had suggested earlier about Moses, Moses sometimes as a leader. So I think the people listening to this are going to play both roles at various points in their lives.
Sometimes they're going to be the questioner. Sometimes they're going to be the person that the questioner, the petitioner is coming to. And I love the model that he gave us of like reflecting back.
I don't know. I think sometimes when you're in a position of leadership, the almost defensive space is to just be like, the answer's no, even if I don't know, or particularly if I don't know, the answer's no. You don't want to reveal weakness or open a can of worms, or it might just feel like it's a lot of work.
But I really appreciate the fact that Moses's response was, this is a good question. We're going to slow the roll on this. And I'm going to take some time and go to the place, the source that I know will give me a good answer.
Because I think that's also modeling openness and curiosity and a willingness to change in its own way. And the answer might not always be yes. You might not always get the answer you want.
But again, from a peacemaking perspective, as a petitioner, if I go to someone and they say, I'm going to consider that, give me a bit. And they come back to me, even if they then give me a no, but it's a thoughtfully explained no. That is much easier for me to accept than just a, nope, flat out no.
Yeah. Right. So both of these, I think one of the things I love about you bringing the story to us is I think peacemaking is modeled by all parties.
All parties sort of model what it looks like to do that. So wise, Jen. And that it can be slow.
And it doesn't. Yeah. That question, the answer and the solution doesn't come instantaneously, right? Yeah.
Where, you know, just a few weeks ago, now I work for Commonwealth Catholic Charities and they're refugee and asylum seekers and immigrant services. And right now, you know, our federal administration is making a lot of sweeping decisions that are impacting the lives of the people that I care about and work for. And we've seen a lot of loss of benefits and, you know, heartaching things happen where pregnant women are losing health care and services and all these things.
And so just last week I hosted a group of community leaders and nonprofits and faith communities to come and say, you know, these are our neighbors. Surely none of us want this, right? All of us want good outcomes for mothers and children, right? What can we do collaboratively? And the decision wasn't like instantaneous, right? But we've all gone back to look at the resources that we can come up with and the things that we can contribute and the systems that we can create. The LDS Church just made a significant financial donation to a faith-based clinic here in Richmond to get medical equipment for this new maternal and child clinic that they're opening.
Other people are bringing different insights. So it's not always instantaneous and the solution isn't always known right off the bat. But the question and the invitation to participate in the solution and sticking with that process until you figure it out, I think is really beautiful and holy work.
So let me ask you a question. I think we are in sort of a moment of civic and political tension in which we sort of, and I'm going to paint with the broadest possible brush, break all of the rules, say that we've got a group of people that are often saying things should be the way they were. Like we want to go a little bit backwards.
And then we've got a group of people that are saying everything should be different, right? And both of those are, I just think for most of the people inhabiting the human experience, they're like, neither of those sound awesome to me. I don't want things to always be the same, but I don't want everything to be different. So one of the things that really intrigues me about this story is that when we are in a position of seeing change, there's always going to be a tension between the way things are, the way they've always been done.
I mean, these daughters were up against a pretty significant tradition. It wasn't like this is just something that was a one-off. They were pushing against centuries of the way things had been done, right? And then let's talk, can you share a little bit of your thoughts about that tension? How do you know, how do you tell the difference between when you are making a reasonable, thoughtful, righteous, and considered ask for things to change, and when perhaps you might just be blowing up people's universe, right? How do you weigh those tensions?
That's a tough question, Jen.
You put me up against a whatnot, I'm sorry. It's a very thoughtful question, and I mean, to me, it all comes to, does our current situation align with the fundamental truth I believe in, that all are like unto God, right? That is to me, the North Star. That is the essence of the truth that enlivens everything we do, right? And if we're not there yet in our policies or programs or procedures, then I'm hopeful that there'll be progress.
The speed of that or how that's going to happen, I have to be humble enough to say, I don't know, but I want to help make it happen, right? But yeah, but you're right. There is tension. Holy trouble, right? Yeah.
John, oh my goodness. John Lewis. Good trouble.
Yes. Yes. Good trouble.
Holy and good trouble, right? So definitely, we don't want to blow up people's universe. We don't want to create change in a way that just... Because change is always loss of something for somebody, right? We don't want to create that. I love acknowledging that.
Yes. In painstaking or dismantling or painfully disruptive ways. But holy trouble is okay, right? And change is okay.
And I think anybody who loves goodness knows that change is necessary and important and that we're not static. We're not... Nothing... Like that we're growing, we're progressing, we're becoming all that we're meant to be as individuals, as communities, as nations, as civilizations, as a human family. So I think getting comfortable with, yes, change is enlivening and good.
That wasn't a brilliant answer to your question, but you know what? I will tell you one thing. I hope this ties in a little bit that where recently we have a great organization here in Richmond. It's called the Virginia Interfaith Center for Public Policy.
And they come up with issues that they try to engage faith communities from all different backgrounds in addressing at our state legislature. And they interviewed me about how can they widen their constituents? How do they get more faith communities engaged? And as I thought about it, I thought it was interesting. They use the term social justice a lot.
And I told them that for many people, especially if you're trying to widen the spectrum of people in the political spectrum that you're at, that that's a scary term, right? That's an angry, divisive, threatening term, right? That makes people uncomfortable, right? And so if you want to invite more people in, let's talk about human flourishing. Let's talk about working together for the common good, or let's use a new language that feels softer and more welcoming and more grounded in things we can all get on board with rather than social justice, which is kind of politicized and divisive and kind of has an angry feel. Not to say that I don't believe in social justice by any means, right? But the terminology already puts some people up against the wall, already put some people up like, oh, I don't want to do that.
Oh, that's dangerous. Oh, that's something to avoid. So I think the words we choose and the phrases we use in this process of peacemaking and community development, positive change, I think is really, really important.
OK, I've got as before we wrap up, I've got two more questions for you real quick, so we can go to lightning round here. So and then we've got one question we always end with. But so one question.
So one of the things you pointed out that's so effective about the daughters as they do this is they're addressing a very specific issue, right? No doubt there were lots of, in their case, gender imbalances within ancient Israel. There were lots of things that they could address in terms of the proper relationship between men and women and so forth. But they addressed one thing.
Can you talk about and I see you and knowing something of the body of your work over the past few years of really a masterful approach as sort of attacking things or approaching things like one specific thing at a time. Right. This book, this issue, this this community need.
Right. So so sometimes people say, like, there are so many problems. Right.
The problems are systemic. They're everywhere that various kinds of inequalities and injustices that we face in this world. Right.
How how do you to just talk about your strategy? Because I see you working very much along these lines of like picking one thing at a time rather than like the entire system. Right. Right.
We can't do everything well. Right. If we try to do everything, we're not we're going to do very little, you know.
And and so I've it is hard, though, because I think like all of us, we want to do good things. Yeah. How do you have patience with doing one thing at a time?
Right. And everything sounds beautiful and worthy and noble and and and important. But for me, as I'm trying to be prayerful about it, I try to think about like in my life circumstance, in my life role, in the in the community, in the proximity closest to me, what is most pressing? And that is different issues and problems have arisen at different times.
And so much might make, you know, my my book work and all of this that's flowed from that came from my mothering and that was in the season of mothering young children. And so many fruitful things came out of that because I was trying to embrace that season and what was most important in that time. Right.
And and so much of my professional work came from experiences in my neighborhood that were challenging. I was living in a neighborhood where there were immigrants from 40 different countries in a school where there was a big divide and we're trying to figure out how do we all get along? And so I I try to be prayerful. I try to think of proximity and try to think of that this purpose and season of my life and like what is most pressing for me at this moment and what is my gifts and my capacity to really focus on one issue to to delve into and to try to peacefully create change.
I love that. And there was some alliteration there, like the the proximity and what is most pressing. Well, and I think this pulls on the threads of kind of what we've previously talked about, this idea that that peacemaking emerges when you're going to be the best advocate when you are closest to the situation, when you have knowledge of the situation.
And and that that is also going to be the environment in which you're most likely to get, to Patrick's earlier point, the richest inspiration and imagination for new solutions. It's going to be I am not working with immigrants and refugees right now, so it's very unlikely that that I will have a lot of fruitful imagination about innovative ways to solve their problems. So I love I love the way you frame this, that that proximity gives you both power to speak about an issue, but then also it gives you access, I think, to the most direct inspiration about solutions.
Yes, and we're invested in the solutions, right? We're invested, it's us. It's not trying to come up with ideas for other people in other situations, in other places. It's like it's a mess you're in the middle of.
Yeah, right. Yeah. I'm invested, I'm connected, I'm in it for the long haul.
OK, my other question, how do you manage the fear and anxiety of speaking to power and working within systems and structures and organizations that might be good and benevolent in general, but where you, you know, as a person, as an individual, maybe as a woman, right, haven't traditionally had access, that maybe the daughters were kind of fearful, like what might Moses say or what happens if we step out? Right. This hasn't been the traditional role for women in our society. How do you manage that that fear and anxiety, Bethany? Yeah, I think one of my gifts is that I don't have a lot of fear.
And maybe I wish I had a little bit more or some people wish I had a little bit more. But but but you know what? I do think that's the spiritual gift. Yeah, I appreciate that.
But I do I think if we all just embrace this mantra that we're all children of God, we're all brothers and sisters. We're all really equal. We play different roles.
We wear different outfits. We are in different positions at different times. But really, we're all just people that have a hard time getting out of bed and getting to where we need to be and, you know, trying to do our laundry and get breakfast and get things and, you know, and hope and dream and fall short and all those things.
I think just humanizing people that we're all we're really all the same. And and I also think emphasizing people's innate goodness. And like I mentioned, like I think really most people want to step into a solution to do good and to create positive change and momentum.
So I think fear can be reduced as that if we just recognize we're all we're all we're all brothers and sisters, we're all equals, and we're all really trying to work together to create the world that God intends for us. That's a beautiful place to end. So we will do that.
It's been a wonderful conversation. We just so enjoyed talking with you. And can we end with a final question, which is we've asked you to define peace for us, but now we'd love to know more about where you go to find it now.
Maybe you don't have to work hard because you are not fearful and anxious by nature, but perhaps you can describe a pathway to those of us that are for where you find peace. Wow. A physical place.
I don't know if that's what you're asking, but it can be whatever you want. Yeah, I live by the mighty James River that flows from the Blue Ridge Mountains to the Chesapeake Bay out to the Atlantic Ocean. And I live just minutes from the James River.
And I love to go and sit on the banks of the river and see how things flow. Right. That that flow.
And it just reminds me that God's love keeps flowing. Hope keeps flowing. Progress keeps flowing.
Life keeps flowing. And I sit on the banks of the river and I'm hopeful. I either sit on the banks or I kayak in it.
That's a place I really find peace. And just the imagery of the river that keeps flowing as a symbol of God's love, progress, possibility, peace, hope, all those keeps keep flowing. And if I can, I want to be a conduit and help that flowing.
That's my favorite piece. Local. That's my favorite place.
Locally defined peace. I love that. That is absolutely a beautiful example.
Thank you. Thank you, Bethany. This is terrific.
Jennifer Thomas (46:30)
Thanks for listening to this episode of "Proclaim Peace." To hear more, you can subscribe on a podcast app of your choice or on YouTube. You can always find full show notes or transcriptions at proclaimpeace.org.
Patrick Mason (46:44)
"Proclaim Peace" is a partnership between MWEG and Waymakers. You can learn more about Waymakers at waymakers.us. Thanks again for listening and we’ll see you next time.
