"Proclaim Peace" Season 2, Episode 4 // Adam and Eve as an Archetype for Understanding Conflict, With Mallory Everton

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0AiQPqXsUE

Listen on Spotify or Apple Podcasts, or watch on YouTube.

Jen and Patrick are joined by Mallory Everton to explore the themes of personal peace, the complexity of relationships, and the foundational story of Adam and Eve as a lens for understanding conflict and decision-making. They discuss the importance of vulnerability, self-compassion, and the role of creativity in navigating life's challenges. The conversation emphasizes the need for community and connection in the pursuit of peace and spiritual growth.

Chapters

00:00 Defining Peace: Trust and Acceptance

05:59 The Story of Adam and Eve: Choices and Consequences

09:38 Conflict in Relationships: The Ripple Effect of Choices

13:24 Personal Revelation vs. Institutional Authority

19:02 Navigating Uncertainty: Moral Courage and Growth

23:40 The Complexity of Spiritual Growth

25:40 The Risks of Spiritual Growth

28:21 Honesty and Vulnerability in Relationships

31:15 Self-Compassion and Its Impact on Others

36:21 Creativity Born from Conflict and Tension

42:19 Finding Peace in Connection and Community

Transcript

Patrick Mason (00:00)

Hi everyone and welcome to the "Proclaim Peace" podcast where we are talking about how the Old Testament can teach us to be better peacemakers. I'm Patrick Mason. I am here as always with Jen Thomas. Jen, how's it going? 

Jennifer Thomas (00:11)

It's going. It's going, Patrick. It's been a rough start to the new year for the universe at large, but we are going to put a stake in the ground for peace.

Patrick Mason (00:18)

It is going. Sometimes that's the best we can do, right? So, well, I love the conversations that we're having this season, and there's so much rich material. And today we're gonna be talking about the Adam and Eve story. And in some ways, like...

I feel like you could do an entire podcast season just on the Adam and Eve story. there's a reason it is so archetypal. ⁓ I mean, it's not that long, right? But there's a reason we've been telling this story for like thousands of years. There's a reason like that. It's just so pregnant with meaning. But we're going to keep talking about it today to pull out some principles of peacemaking.

Jennifer Thomas (00:44)

Yep. Yeah. And think there is a reason also a corollary to that. Is there a reason that people have tried to flatten it out or diminish it? Because I think there's just an extraordinary level of complexity there to help us as we navigate our mortal experience. it is in the interest often of non-godlike forces to kind of flatten things out and make them less complex and overly simplistic. And I really appreciate the way we're gonna jump into this story today and deal with some of the complexity because I think that one of the things that we have to acknowledge

Patrick Mason (01:05)

Hmm.

Jennifer Thomas (01:28)

if we want to be peacemakers and we want to help resolve conflict with those around us is that often we are going to have conflict with people not because they're doing something wrong per se but because they're they see they have a different moral vision than we do or they are trying to achieve good you know using different means or they are growing in ways that maybe make us uncomfortable and all of those things I think emerge from

the Adam and Eve story and are related to how we're going to manage conflict in situations where it isn't between good and evil, but it's between good people trying to get to a good end, but using different means.

Patrick Mason (02:06)

Yeah, and some sometimes that's like the hardest kind of peacemaking to do right is is not between good and evil, not Luke and Darth Vader or something like that. But it turns out Darth Vader is kind of complicated, too. but the people have different values. People bring different experiences. People bring different perspectives to the table and.

Jennifer Thomas (02:10)

Yeah, right.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Patrick Mason (02:29)

That's so much of what drives conflict. And that is why I think that the complexity of the Adam and Eve story is so useful to reflect on and to think with at a very foundational level as peacemakers to think about like, what is it that we're about?

Jennifer Thomas (02:32)

Yes.

Well, and I think that sometimes it's really easy for me to say, okay, I'm going to have conflict with someone who I know is diametrically opposed to me or who I know wants different things for the world than I do. But sometimes the biggest tension that I feel with people and I don't know how to resolve it is when I'm like, well, we share the same, I thought we shared the same vision of God or I thought we shared the same vision of Zion or I thought.

Patrick Mason (03:11)

Right.

Jennifer Thomas (03:14)

We were both trying to like honor God and it turns out like you're mad at me for what I did or I'm mad at you for what you did. And so I'm hoping that this conversation that we have today will sort of give us some peace around that and acknowledge that this is just sort of the way things are again, the way they were designed to be that this story is at the beginning of the creation for a very good reason and that we can all learn to have more patience with each other and love as we grow. So

We have a special guest here with us today to help us accomplish that. Mallory Everton is a comedian, writer, and actor. She's best known for her roles in the popular sketch comedy show, Studio C, which is still years later regularly quoted by my family.

She currently co-hosts the Soloist podcast, which highlights the complexities of forming relationships and being single in a family-centered church. Mallory is incredibly creative and she's a to, and we're so excited to bring her here in front of you today. Welcome, Mallory.

Patrick Mason (04:09)

All right, Mallory, it is awesome to have you on the podcast. Welcome to "Proclaim Peace."

Mallory (04:13)

Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here.

Patrick Mason (04:15)

I'm looking forward to it. we always start with the same question and it's amazing how many different answers we get. How do you, Mallory Everton, how do you define peace?

Mallory (04:26)

Yeah, this is such a good question. And it really, I had to think about it for a little while. immediately, my brain went to the him, where can I turn for peace? And the way I've always thought about peace as an individual. And I think that the best way that I could describe how it feels to me is the deep state of trust. And I think maybe in addition and acceptance of the present, if not an embracing of the present.

to be able to really trust that this is exactly how it should be. That I'm totally safe even if I'm not safe. If that makes sense. That's how it feels. That's how it feels for me to have personal peace. And then when I'm thinking about it in relationship, I actually think trust still applies. I think that it's when we can trust each other that we have enough of a shared vision. And I'm not saying that we all agree or that we like each other even, but that we have enough of a shared vision that we can trust.

Patrick Mason (04:56)

Mmm.

Jennifer Thomas (04:57)

Yeah.

you

Mallory (05:16)

that this is what you're going to do and this is what I'm going to do. That in relationship, we're going to respect each other's boundaries, that we're not going to harm each other on purpose. That to me describes what peace is between people in a collective, is that there's a level of trust, that we can trust in each other's behavior, that there are some agreed upon truths or principles that we're adhering to.

Patrick Mason (05:40)

I like that a lot.

Jennifer Thomas (05:41)

Yeah, I really appreciate that. And I actually think it is a really, really great way to jump into what we want to talk about today. we find ourselves in we want we want to talk a little bit about the story of Adam and Eve and specifically how different people make different decisions in the same circumstance, right? And that they might think that they are each doing the right thing. But

Mallory (05:59)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Thomas (06:05)

the other person might feel that that is actually not the right choice. And to me, I love that this idea that you've talked about that relationally, that the peace is relational in many ways, that we find peace when we have a high sense of trust with other people and can know that they are going to act in our best interest. And that's hard. So we're going to jump right into it because this is the original

Mallory (06:28)

Yeah.

Jennifer Thomas (06:30)

hard conflict, right? It's the origin story of kind of how conflict to some degree entered the world. So let's talk about it. And I'm really interested in hearing particularly from your perspective as a storyteller, right? This is one of the things you're so good at. So what strikes you most about this story?

Mallory (06:32)

Yeah. ⁓

Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Thomas (06:51)

insofar as it relates to conflict, the story of Adam and Eve. If you're telling story, if you're highlighting narrative, you know, what jumps out at you?

Mallory (06:58)

A couple of things. mean, first of all, I just think as a performer and as a... Eve is the character in this story that every actor would want to play. And I think that's exciting. To me, that's a... Like, there are so many different books and articles that you could read about women in Hollywood being so bored with the female characters offered to them on the page. Eve is not like that. She is a character that anyone would kill to play.

Jennifer Thomas (07:07)

Yes.

Mallory (07:22)

because she makes the climactic choice. She is the one who really sets off the domino effect. And it's like the domino effect of all human existence. So it's pretty epic. And the other thing that I think of immediately when I think of this story from the perspective of my background is just that we are so bored by scenes where there's an argument.

Jennifer Thomas (07:31)

Yeah.

Patrick Mason (07:32)

Right.

Mallory (07:46)

between two people and one of, and it's so clear who's right and who's wrong. We love a movie where the villain actually has a pretty good point and Satan has a pretty good point. And in fact, he might actually be right in some, like maybe not fully right, like she ends up going with what Satan suggests and it's because it's a pretty good point. Exactly.

Jennifer Thomas (08:05)

his motive might not be right. He might not want what's best for her, but, ⁓ and I think

that's sometimes inherent in like making difficult decisions is that those two things can be mixed together. There might be the right action, but the wrong motive. might be, yeah.

Mallory (08:18)

Yes.

my gosh, and that's one of the complexities of human existence is just can you do the right thing for the wrong reason or the wrong thing for the right reason? And that is what she's doing, potentially doing the wrong thing for the right reason. At least that's the way we talk about it in our theology in Mormonism, which I think is very refreshing. But it's it's a. I think that what it really draws us into is spiritual maturity.

the ability to be able to hold contradictory things at the same time, to be forced into paradox and also to embrace our humanness. mean, everything in this is, it really, really forces you to, I had somebody on Sunday say that the Bible isn't for children. I thought that was such a good point. And this is one of those things, it's like, this is a very hard thing to teach a child, that you contain the entire,

you contain the entire multitude of existence. You are both very capable of great, great good and great, great bad. And you deserve grace no matter where you are on the wheel. That's one of the things that we take from this as well. But yeah, the part of the reason this story is so good is because both sides have a pretty good point. They have a pretty compelling argument. And so we end up with a really meaty, a really meaty scene here.

Patrick Mason (09:32)

So how do you think about, I like the way you framed this and thinking about this as a movie or as a play or something like this. so talk about the Adam Eve relationship. How would you sketch out or how do you describe that kind of conflict? We've talked about Satan and Eve and what he offers her, but there's Adam in the mix too.

Mallory (09:36)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

man, I mean, from a theme standpoint, my brain immediately goes to the fact that we have to make our own choices, but we don't live in a vacuum. And so there's almost no way that your choices, even just in your marriage, don't matter. You know, you might think it's just between you two people or that this is just about me. This is just about me and God. And yes, it is, but it's always also about all of us.

Patrick Mason (10:03)

Mmm.

Mallory (10:19)

It's always also about all of us because, and I think that's one of the reasons why it's so important that we make choices from very deep values place within us because they will have a ripple effect. as much as possible, It's nice to feel purposeful with the ripple effect we're having on the world. And that's what I first think of with Adam and Eve that her choices affect him immediately and directly.

But also she does need to make her choices. It's not really intimacy if she's not being her full self. And this is a part of who she is. This question she has, this choice that she made, it's a part of who she is. And if she didn't bring that to him, then they wouldn't be in true intimacy with each other.

Patrick Mason (10:59)

And of course his choices, if they just did Adam all the time, right? That would constrain her agency too, right? So they're both making choices that are going to impede on the other person's sense of values and the way that their primary orientation towards the world and towards difficult ethical problems.

Mallory (11:04)

Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Thomas (11:07)

Exactly.

Mallory (11:07)

Yes.

Yes.

Can I ask you a question too? sorry. Jen, what were you going to say?

Jennifer Thomas (11:24)

No, I was just going

to say and even live at limit in significant ways, potentially their ability to expand into their full capacity. Like if you if you make that decision, OK, this is a decision between me and God without considering how that impact the downstream impact that that might have on a partner. You can say, well, I made the right decision, but.

Mallory (11:32)

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Thomas (11:46)

I love

the way that you're talking about the fact that in conflict and in these really difficult decisions, we need to be aware of the impact of even what we think might be the morally right thing to do on the people around us. And I think we can't, even if we make the decision we were always gonna make, I don't know that we can argue that it was completely moral if we haven't done the godlike work of considering the impact.

Mallory (12:09)

Well, and I love the way Jennifer Finlayson-Five talks about this. She gave me some language for this several years ago, which she often talks about making choices that are of the highest good for all and the highest good includes you, which I think is very, it's very, very easy from a Christian perspective to not include yourself in the highest good, but it actually is not good to not include yourself in that equation. Like if she were to say, I'm having this instinct, but I'm going to violate it completely.

I'm not gonna share it and I'm definitely not gonna do it, that there are downstream effects for complete violation of self. And it's a very complex topic because sometimes when we're talking about trusting God, it feels like trusting self. And sometimes when we're talking about trusting God, it feels like trusting institution or it feels like it's trusting sort of cultural or community wisdom. And we kind of...

always have to be the ones to make that call. Like what does trusting God mean in this situation? Because it's not always the same. The question I was going to ask, just in terms of Adam and Eve, you know what I didn't really notice before? But when I reread the Genesis and Moses versions of this story before doing this podcast, I was struck by the fact that the instruction about the tree is given to Adam before Eve is created.

And so, you know, I'd never really considered that possibly she had not received her own witness from God specifically, which probably had because God is in the garden dwelling with them. But that's the way the story is written. So there's something also to consider about the fact that perhaps she she had a different perspective. She wasn't there for as long. She didn't name all of the creatures like she was a different creature than he was. And I think that's really interesting, too, from a character perspective.

Patrick Mason (13:49)

That is

interesting. And I also where my mind immediately goes to is that it's sort of easy to keep all the rules when you're all by yourself. Like like I was an amazing parent until I had kids. And and and so that there is that that that kind of, you know, stalwart righteousness, which is

Mallory (13:58)

Isn't it so true?

Yes.

Patrick Mason (14:14)

kind of easy outside of relationship.

Mallory (14:16)

man, and isn't it just there's some there's so much beauty and perfection in philosophy. It's so nice to philosophize, isn't it? And that's what we can do a lot of the time. But philosophy applied to your messy life is often very messy. I would say maybe always very messy.

Patrick Mason (14:22)

Yeah. Right.

Jennifer Thomas (14:33)

Well, and

I want to go back to kind of what you asked and tease that apart a little bit because I think, you know, we are obviously talking about peacemaking on this podcast. And I think you've captured something really important that we should consider. And that is that often we feel like we have a sense of what is right because of the information that has been given to us. but.

Other people don't have the same information that we have often. They might have, that might be a negative. They might not have had a full vision, but I think some, and so we might be like, well, they just don't know. And so, you know, I've got to be aware of the fact that they might not know. And I think we often do that when we're trying to be compassionate in church about people that we see as not obeying the commandments. We're like, well, they just don't know. They haven't heard yet. They don't understand. But I think that goes both ways. I think we have to be aware of the fact that

Mallory (14:59)

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Thomas (15:24)

You know, Eve might not have gotten the instruction that Adam had gotten, we don't know. But also, Adam had a very different experience with life coming forth than Eve did. Eve's like, know, Adam's like, maybe babies will appear, I don't know. Maybe they just, that's how the animals came. Like, I don't know, God magic them up, they're here, I named them, good to go. And Eve didn't have that experience, probably for a very specific reason, because that would have been an error.

Mallory (15:34)

Yes.

Patrick Mason (15:37)

You

Mallory (15:37)

For sure,

for sure. Yeah.

Jennifer Thomas (15:48)

and God didn't want her to have that false information that then would have led to her to be like sitting around waiting, are my babies? Where's humans? And ⁓ so I think sometimes it's really important to remember that honestly, God gives us each different perspectives because he wants us to come together. He wants that to not be a source of conflict for us, but a place that we can come together and work things out harmoniously so that we actually in the process are becoming one.

Mallory (15:54)

Hmm. Yeah.

Jennifer Thomas (16:15)

whether it's as a spouse or with our neighbors or with our other church members. If we all had the same information, we wouldn't go through that process. Does that make sense? I don't know.

Mallory (16:23)

Yeah.

⁓ yes, it makes perfect sense. And actually, before we started recording, I had mentioned that I was a big fan of the Enneagram. And it's a way of making sense of, I guess the human population is one of the personality tests, but it feels like a little bit deeper. The way that Richard Rohr talks about the Enneagram is that all of the nine personality types make up the full face of God, which is so similar to the way we talk about the body of Christ. And I think it's...

It's almost helpful for me sometimes to think that we are, there's this beautiful thing that Brian McLaren said on the Faith Matters podcast, I think the most recent one where he was talking about how being chosen is being called into service. And is it possible that we are being called to different truths to try and make the full face of God? That this person feels very called to delve more deeply into this thing, they feel irked by this question.

when someone else feels like it would almost be a sin to even ask that question. And is it possible that we're called to these different areas to try and get our vision as people and as a human race closer to the vision of God, but we all have to, we're called to our different parts. We're called into deep service to different parts of the truth. And I think that that actually gives more lenience and patience for each other and also more respect. Like,

Patrick Mason (17:18)

Hmm.

Mallory (17:40)

Go over there and do your work. If that's what you're called to, I actually want to tell you that I believe in you and that I believe that you can help us understand this more instead of being afraid because it's so different from what I feel called to.

Patrick Mason (17:54)

So I love that vision. And the question is, how do we do that in a church? So let's even sort of telescope this outside of just a relationship between two people. But is there anything that this story tells us, any lessons that we can glean from it about how to have

and how to navigate the kinds of conflicts that we see between personal revelation, right, this sense of calling that you've just mentioned. And of course, that's bedrock for Latter-day Saints, that God can talk to me, God can talk to you, and God will, right?

Mallory (18:27)

Right, right.

Jennifer Thomas (18:31)

And does, yeah,

Mallory (18:32)

Yes. Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Thomas (18:32)

that's, mean, patriarchal blessings, right? It's like, there's...

Patrick Mason (18:35)

Absolutely. And at the same time, we have institutions and we have an institution with authority, with authority structures, with teachings, with commandments, with all these kinds of things, guidelines of how we should all live. So is there anything in the Adam and Eve story, Mallory, that when you look at it, that helps you think about navigating that conflict between personal revelation and institutional authority?

Mallory (19:02)

You know, I think it's obvious from the story that the definition of maturity is being able to hold two contradictory truths at the same time. And I think also what the story makes me think about is that spiritual growth is unavoidable. sometimes I wonder what would have happened in the garden if this didn't happen at this juncture. Don't you think it would have happened later? Don't you think like the questions that

Patrick Mason (19:23)

Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Thomas (19:24)

It would have had to,

yeah.

Mallory (19:25)

Yes,

exactly. eventually, maybe it would have been a slightly different story, Adam and Eve get into a massive spat and like there's some, there's a knockout drag out fight and the pigs are involved or whatever. And you know what I mean? We don't get to know what would have happened if, but I do think that this is unavoidable. And I think that sometimes ⁓ that is maybe one of the mistakes that we make in.

not just in community, but within ourselves, this idea that we're going to get to sort of the right track and the right path and it's gonna stay like that. I love the way Cynthia Winward talks about this on At Last She Said It. She has this phrase that she uses all the time, is, this worked for me until it didn't. And I think the garden was working until it didn't. I think that will continue to happen.

with all of us. And I think the more that we can be aware that that's actually the unavoidable thing happening to all of us, even if you want to just grab on so tight, you are spiritually growing. There are things that are not working for you anymore. Actually, there's this great quote that I actually pulled up from Jared Halverson. He said, is doubt a gift? Depends on what you do with it. Is faith a gift? Depends on what you do with it. Is any gift a gift? Depends on what you do with it. Anything that draws you closer to God is inspired of him.

Mormon tells us that, which means anything that draws us away is not a gift anymore, and it has become a curse to us. And we're the only ones who can make the call whether or not something has turned from a gift to a curse in our hands. And so I wish that there were straightforward answers with this, Patrick, but I don't think this exists on this topic. Like, this story is just full of, sorry, there's no clear answer. What are you going to do?

Patrick Mason (21:00)

Ha ha ha.

Mallory (21:06)

What are you going to do in the face of uncertainty? And you know what I think is encouraging about uncertainty and I think should almost excite us is that from my view, I look at all of the stories that I've been just in my whole life, all the stories that have really moved me. And we are so moved as a people and as spirits by moral courage and uncertainty is the only thing that makes that possible. We love when someone

I actually think it's what makes all art work. I think that it's that we have a feeling that that artist didn't know if what they were saying was gonna work or not. They had no idea if that album was going to connect with anybody else or if what they were doing was too vulnerable or too weird and it was gonna make people recoil. And there is something about that bravery and that moral courage that honestly inspires and invites and connects us all. And so,

Even though it's terrible that we don't get to be certain in this, it's actually an invitation for us to be beautiful, like at our most beautiful.

Jennifer Thomas (22:07)

So I just love everything you said. I'm I just want to reiterate how much this is how the story starts. This is you know, this isn't how OK, I walk my people along for, you know, several books of the Old Testament and then and then I break it to you gently. OK, it's going to be hard. There's going to be conflict. There's going to be complexity. It's from the very, very beginning.

Mallory (22:14)

Yes, yes!

Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Thomas (22:30)

God says, no, this will be complex. You will have to make difficult decisions. You're going to have to do this in collaboration with other people. You're going to have to kind of try to decipher messages from me. And I love what you said. And you're going to have to have courage. You're going to have to go forward with courage. I think when we, I love how you said that that's art. I think that's also true in my field in politics where the people that we

Mallory (22:47)

Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Thomas (22:56)

we memorialize and that we think of as being sort of great leaders were always people who took a convicted moral stance ⁓ in a very difficult moment and said, I feel strongly that this is the direction that we need to move, but only time would bear that out. It wasn't always clear that things would work out, but they were willing to kind of risk in order to do the right thing. And I think that one of the things that I'm struck with

Mallory (23:05)

Yeah.

Jennifer Thomas (23:23)

is how much it was in the interest of, I don't know, forces that want us confused to flatten that story from the very beginning. To say, no, to go back to the way you were describing it in the beginning, instead of Eve being a complex character, she's a flat character, she's the bad guy, she broke the system, right? And that, for those who want things to be simple and simplistic, that story has been a mid-

Mallory (23:40)

Yes.

Jennifer Thomas (23:47)

manipulated from the very beginning. And if we really want to know how God works with us and really want to know how we are going to have to move through the world, we have to address the complexity in this story. And so I'm so appreciative of the way you've done that.

Mallory (23:58)

Yeah.

Well, and I love what you're saying. Don't you think God would, God sees us all as complex. I don't think that, I think that God can appreciate our nuance in a way that we can only dream of appreciating our own nuance and each other's nuance. And it makes us all so much more interesting. Again, like from a, from a character standpoint, from, writing characters and from playing characters, it's the characters who have very justified motives, but also,

often contradictory things. We love a character that is like genuinely so misguided in some ways, but has a deep, deep, deep, beautiful quality as well. Like one of my favorite movies of the past couple of years was The Holdovers. Every character in that movie, if you watch it, it's rated R, sorry, but it's very good. It was written so well. All the characters are, I think so too. I believe it's very rated R.

Patrick Mason (24:48)

You know what, the Old Testament's rated R2, so, you know.

Mallory (24:54)

But ⁓ in that movie, all the characters are, they're all kind of jerks, but they also like, you'll see how they defend each other in these difficult moments. And I think that one of reasons we're so attracted to characters like that is because we relate and we understand that actually we are all battling with these different parts of ourselves. And that's what this story is about. It's about being nuanced. It's about being a person who actually doesn't know the future as well and never can and therefore.

leans on God in the mystery. That's what we're all here for. That's why the three of us are obsessed with this topic and with spiritual growth in general. It is the thing that guides us toward God and kind of continues to help us lean into mystery and our own beauty.

Patrick Mason (25:40)

there's any risks in that? Do think there are any risks in what we're talking about, a spiritual growth or increased spiritual maturity? Yeah, do we leave anything behind?

Mallory (25:47)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

I mean, what's the alternative, Patrick? What do we think the alternative is? part of the reason I'm like pretty sure that spiritual growth is unavoidable is because all ourselves will turn over even if we do nothing. You know what I mean? So I don't think we get to just stay. And so I guess the risk, there are risks, I guess, I'm saying this in a roundabout way. The risks are,

Patrick Mason (25:57)

Yeah.

Mallory (26:17)

losing track of God, losing track of ourselves, losing track of each other, having no ground, not knowing what steps to take, making huge mistakes, hurting each other, hurting ourselves. You know what mean? Like, yes, there's pretty much nothing but risk. But also the idea of trying to stay. I think it's...

I think that's worse. think stasis is worse for our souls or at least I think because it's a type of denial. My dad said this amazing thing to me. He had open heart surgery two years ago and he when he was like on his meds while he was recovering afterward, he was just this like Buddha. I loved it so much. We would go on these walks and he was so he was we just talked about God and at one point he said to me like

Mallory, it's so important that we're completely honest before God, because if not, we're hiding from him and then he can't help us. So even if we're angry at him, confused, frustrated, like completely fed up, we need to be honest or else we're hiding from God and he can't help us. so from that, take that denial is really just a way of hiding from God. And when you look at it from the point of like, like an addict.

They can't start the 12 step program until they can admit that their life is unmanageable. That's honesty. Honesty before God being able to say, okay, I hate to admit it, but these are my ingredients. What can I make with these ingredients? I know I need to make something because I don't know what else to do. And I think that's really why we're all creative beings is because we're all just trying to figure out what to create with what's in front of us. But we can't do it unless we're honest. And I think that the risk of

Just staying in denial. Everything's fine right where I am in the garden. I'm just going to stay right here. I'm going to ignore my questions. I'm too afraid to ask them. Or I just don't want to do the wrong thing. I'm so afraid of doing the wrong thing that I'm going to sit in this feeling of my soul being completely appalled. And that's part of the reason I'm like, I do think it's avoidable. I think even if it takes you 20 years, eventually you move out of that garden. know? So maybe what we're doing a lot of the time is

Patrick Mason (28:11)

Yeah.

Mallory (28:21)

First of all, just trying to give ourselves grace, even if it does take us 20 years to leave the garden. And then also, yeah, recognizing that we don't have to do this alone, that like inertia and the physical forces of this universe will eventually help us move if we're having a hard time doing so. Maybe that's a wild thing to say, but it's how it feels for me.

Patrick Mason (28:41)

I think there's a lot of wisdom there.

And I think that's a sort of underappreciated part of the story is of Adam and Eve is that, you know, God can deal with their eating the fruit. God can deal even with them, like blaming each other or blame it. Oh, it's like the other guy, right? But but it's it's it's when they're hiding that they can't have the conversation. Right. And and

Mallory (28:58)

Mm-hmm. It was Eve.

Yeah.

Patrick Mason (29:07)

And there's other stories about this throughout the Old Testament where God is calling us out of hiding, like Jonah trying to run away, right? mean, all these kinds of, like, God just wants to come out of hiding and face it and be honest and have the conversation. Now, that's super hard. I hide all the time. I hide from God. I hide from myself. I hide from other people. And I think maybe one of the lessons here is to try to stop hiding.

Mallory (29:14)

Yes, yes.

Yeah, yeah, which is brutal. Like it's just absolutely brutal. But it's why we love the work of Brene Brown so much. know, she basically talks about how there's a big difference between fitting in and belonging. And I love the idea that, because fitting in implies hiding, I think, in this conversation, in the context of this conversation.

Jennifer Thomas (29:34)

So hard.

Patrick Mason (29:54)

because we hide behind other people, right?

Mallory (29:56)

We hide behind other people. We hide behind the expectations of what it means to fit in into this group, but to belong is to be fully seen and accepted for who we are. And in all of our relationships, in every type of love, you really, you can't feel fully loved until people know you. And man, I learned that so much, even just from my experience of being decently well-known in a small area for a little while. That feeling of, I'm getting all this attention, but it actually doesn't feel like love. feels like something else.

And that's because until people really know you, it doesn't actually feel like love. And so I think that what I love about Brene Brown is that she's just taught us. I mean, I truly think she's a type of prophet. I think that she's like in terms of what we're talking about with people being called to uncover different truths, I think she's helping immensely with human beings, spiritual evolution, our ability to be able to see that vulnerability is bravery and equate that with strength instead of weakness.

to be able to bring ourselves and honesty forward to each other and allow each other to love each other more fully. I mean, what beautiful work to do in the world. But that the vulnerability is essentially the secret sauce to all of the best things in life, to creating art that's impactful to political movements that actually make a difference and to letting people love us and to letting them feel safe to also be vulnerable. I mean, it's gorgeous.

Jennifer Thomas (31:15)

So let me ask you a question. And this is maybe the hardest question we're going to ask you. So I apologize in advance. We have talked, I think we all agree that growth, spiritual growth requires this willingness to embrace complexity. We have to be honest, we have to come forward and be aware of who we are. We have to have courage, all of these things.

Mallory (31:19)

Let's go. It's okay

Jennifer Thomas (31:37)

We don't live alone. So let's go back to this very first, the way we were sort of talking about this in the discussion at the beginning. If I over index on my own personal growth and my own development, I have watched people do this. Well, I have to live my truth and they blow up the lives of people around them, right? And Adam and Eve, that's one of the problems is both of them, the way they were making decisions, they were harming each other and sort of in some ways blowing up each other's.

Mallory (31:56)

Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Thomas (32:05)

possibilities with that because they didn't do it together. So what are your strategies for growing as a human being, being true to yourself, growing spiritually, but doing that while maintaining and sustaining and nurturing relationships with people who might have a range of emotions in reactions to your growth? It might be fear. It might be

It might be discomfort. It might be horror, you know, right? They might not agree with the decisions that the person growing is making. They might be afraid of what it reveals about the fact that they're not growing. I mean, the whole range of human expression happens because we don't do this growth alone. So I guess my question for you is what are your strategies and your spiritually sensitive, disciple-driven strategies that help you

Mallory (32:31)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Thomas (32:53)

Be Christ-like in relationship to the people around you while you are embracing this journey of

Mallory (33:00)

I

I think that the nice thing see yourself as a complicated human being. I hope that, I mean, a lot of the time when I feel like we get talking about self-compassion, for example, we can think that there's something indulgent about it, but actually being able to see ourselves as a complex human being who's doing their best is actually one of the best things we can do for the collective as well.

because we're so much better at being able to extend grace to other people when we are extending it to ourselves. And so the nice built-in thing about doing this scary hard work is that often it requires us to be able to be in a conversation with God about grace. And then we're able to extend it to people who don't understand us as well.

to say, man, I completely understand what it's like to feel complicated feelings. I feel that every day while I'm doing this, you know? So I actually think that in some ways being able to learn that compassion, to be able to have true charity for yourself, that extends out. Because oftentimes, I don't think that we talk about this enough, but one of the reasons that we feel

Like almost every judgment that we have for another person is based on something that we judge ourselves for. And as we slowly release those tension points, like for example, if we weren't to be able to fully acknowledge, like if we were to feel like, well, that person's so close-minded, they're so close-minded about what's going on with me. And I just have no patience for it. can't have that in my life. It's toxic or whatever.

and not acknowledge all the times that we've been close-minded. That's probably why we're so uncomfortable with their close-mindedness. But the more that we're like aware, I was so close-minded earlier today and it's because I'm human. It's because it's so nice to feel like I can just have a black and white idea of this world. It feels so much safer.

But if you sit down and you're able to have that conversation with yourself, I can guarantee you that when that person's close minded, you can say, me too, brother, isn't it hard out here? It's so much easier. But I do think you have to you have to extend that to yourself. You have to examine when we're triggered by each other. And when somebody really brings up something in me, it's almost always because I have zero self-compassion on a certain topic.

Which means I cannot have compassion for them either. I'm not acknowledging that I am just as guilty of this thing almost always. So I, a strange way, the one of my most useful tools is, is, ⁓ just a regular self-compassion practice, really being able to do that work of sitting down and saying, okay, you're a person so hard. This is so hard. What would you like to do next?

How can we consult God with what we do next? I think it's extremely helpful in how we can extend that to others as well. It starts with us, it really does.

Patrick Mason (35:55)

I think that gives a whole new lens or perspective on the commandment to love your neighbor as yourself. So I really like the way that you're thinking about that. That kind of self-compassion actually doesn't come in the way of, but actually facilitates the ability to connect with, be generous towards, be compassionate towards others. I want to ask, you are a

Mallory (36:02)

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Patrick Mason (36:21)

very creative person, you make your living out of being creative. Of course, creativity takes lots of different forms. What is the relationship for you between tension and conflict and creativity? And you could take this either in a kind of, you know, your professional life or maybe relationally or other things, but how did tension and conflict for you

create the opportunities or grounds or maybe even the necessary materials for creativity.

Mallory (36:50)

Well, it is truly the necessary materials. I think you put that so well. I don't feel like I have an idea until I feel like it's complex enough that I don't know how it's going to end. You know, when I'm telling a story or when I'm trying to figure out. So what I've been doing for the past several years since I moved to L.A. is the quiet work of developing TV shows and pitching them and never making them. It's exhausting. It's exhausting.

Patrick Mason (37:00)

Mmm.

You

Mallory (37:14)

But I have developed several TV shows while I've been out here and pitched a bunch of movies. And what that basically means is that you have to think like, what could sustain an entire season of TV? What kind of story could sustain for a full 90 minutes? And I don't feel like I have a story until it's really, like until you're essentially having an argument that is kind of like we were discussing at the beginning, where both the villain and the good guy.

⁓ which is not always just good and evil, but sometimes just the, the prevailing wisdom versus exactly. it's, it's not until you really feel like there's something there where every time both characters speak, your head goes, well, maybe they're right. That you really feel like you have something to dive into. So I definitely feel like conflict is extremely necessary. The tension that that's what we find interesting as people we.

Jennifer Thomas (37:45)

Conflict, yeah.

Mallory (38:04)

We wanna see how it works out and we also appreciate the mystery of it. I think because it's so familiar to us. Like we really, really understand that it feels very, very familiar to not know what's gonna happen next and not know what the right decision is. So I think there's something very satisfying about telling stories that way. And I'll say that from a more spiritual perspective, I've been writing songs for therapy since I was a teenager.

And especially in the last 10 years, was after I had a very dear friend pass away 11 years ago, and it was really, really rough. There were days where I just didn't know what to do other than to with with all of the horrible feelings that come with somebody, especially I was 25 at the time and he had died very suddenly. And so to just have someone snatched from existence, it definitely spurred on ⁓ a spiritual upheaval for me.

I, you know, even though you think you understand the world, something like that happens and it's ⁓ an immediate tectonic shift. actually kind of think I secretly believed that this couldn't happen. And it did. ⁓ You know, I think that that's that's the way that sort of thing goes. And so I don't know. think one of the things I regularly feel God whisper to me sometimes when I'm like. Really tempted to just. Completely shrink.

Patrick Mason (39:09)

Ha ha.

Mallory (39:22)

into a puddle or a pile is you can make something with this. Even this, you can make something with this. And somehow the therapeutic songwriting has been the best example of that for me that, hey, it's actually if this is causing you deep, deep despair, do you think it's something you could write a song about? And over time, the songs have become like lullabies for myself. I'll write them when I'm often in a place where I just feel like I don't know what to do next.

All I could think to do was write a song. And that feels very real to me that God calls us to make things with these impossible ingredients sometimes because we just don't know what else to do other than make something. And I also think in there's another element to this, too, which is that it makes me think of it makes me think of my favorite scripture, which is first Nephi 11, 16 through 17.

Knowest thou the condescension of God? I know that he loveth his children. Nevertheless, I do not know the meaning of all things. And that is also very present for me that sometimes it's not about the conflict that makes me like there's tension in my life. There's all this stuff. I don't know what to do with this horrible thing. What if I made a funny video? It feels totally disconnected. So have something like that goes right into the heart of it. Let's create something with these ingredients. And then occasionally it's like, hey, but

Patrick Mason (40:35)

Hahaha!

Mallory (40:43)

Don't forget that the world is great. Don't forget that God loves you. You don't know everything, but I do know God loves you. I do know God loves me. And sometimes that's the thing that I get from conflict and tension, which is this reminder like, yes, horrible things, but also do not forget all these good things. Don't forget that God made you love making people laugh. Don't forget about that.

Actually, can I read you a poem? Can I read you a poem? I didn't write it. It's Mary Oliver, but this is a good example of that to me that it's like when we're when we're when we're tempted, I think, to just get swallowed up in this in this concern. Like the truth is, life is scary. There are lots of things to be scared of. The only prophecy we definitely know will come true about our lives is that we're going to die. It's like horrifying. It's hard.

Patrick Mason (41:08)

Yeah!

Jennifer Thomas (41:08)

Yeah,

please.

Mallory (41:31)

Well, she wrote this poem called I Worried and I feel like it sums up so often why I create and how I create. She says, I worried a lot. Will the garden grow? Will the rivers flow in the right direction? Will the earth turn as it was as it was taught? And if not, how shall I correct it? Was I right? Was I wrong? Will I be forgiven? Can I do better? Will I ever be able to sing? Even the sparrows can do it and I am, well, hopeless.

Is my eyesight fading or am I just imagining it? Am I going to get rheumatism, locked jaw, dementia? Finally, I saw that worrying had come to nothing and gave it up. And I took my old body and went out into the morning and sang.

She's the best. I love her so much. Sometimes you just have to create because it's the only thing that makes sense, you know?

Patrick Mason (42:16)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Jennifer Thomas (42:20)

Well, thank you. This has been an absolutely delightful conversation and we're just really appreciative of you being willing to take the time and share so much of your dear soul with us. It's been really, really a lovely journey. We close all of these conversations always with a question which is sort of a bookend to the one at the beginning, which is where do you find peace? We just, now know where Mary Oliver does.

Mallory (42:47)

I know.

Jennifer Thomas (42:48)

But what about Mallory?

Like how do you access and find it?

Mallory (42:52)

Hmm. Yeah. I find peace walking outside in the morning. I love the grace of the morning. I think it's such a great way to start a day. And I find so much peace from reading and listening to what I think of as my soul teachers, like the scriptures, obviously, but also people living and dead who seem to connect to truths that really, really resonate with my spirit. Remind me who I am, what I am, what I'm made of.

and how precious this day is. And I find peace through listening to gospel music, even during the week, sometimes when I need it. The more upbeat the better, in my opinion, that helps me a lot. I went through a phase for a while where I was very, very anxious, like physically anxious. And I found that really somber or too sedate. Like basically if the BPM was too low, I was like, I can't actually. And I needed something that would like

Patrick Mason (43:27)

Yeah.

Jennifer Thomas (43:39)

Yeah, made it worse. Yeah.

Mallory (43:46)

make me clap about God. I was like, I need Jesus and clapping at the same time, Jesus and dancing. But I think maybe more than anything, people, people make me feel peace, sometimes faster than anything. I think of this poem that I got from, I love poems, obviously. I think they're so helpful. But there's this poem that John, by the way, shared in an old talk. I listened to it on a tape when I was like 12.

Patrick Mason (44:11)

you

Mallory (44:12)

It was an anonymous poem. was, tried to find myself, myself I could not see. I tried to find my God, but he eluded me. I tried to find my brother and then I found all three. And I think it's because we can see the face of God in each other, but we can also see each other in each other. There's so much peace and being able to say, me too, me too. I don't know what's going on either. And I find so much peace in that.

that we're here together, sometimes even, especially with how tumultuous today feels. I'm glad we're here together. I'm glad I'm not here by myself trying to figure this out, that we're here in this time period together with our full minds and full hearts trying to make sense of this.

Patrick Mason (44:49)

Amazing. Mallory, thank you so much for joining us. We really appreciate all your insights.

Jennifer Thomas (44:51)

Thank you.

Mallory (44:54)

such a treat. You're both so beautiful. Thank you for doing what you're doing and for having this massive impact. mean, personally, I just think that your podcast is such a beautiful project. so honored to be a part of it. And thank you for having me today.

Patrick Mason (44:57)

Thank you.

Jennifer Thomas (45:07)

Thanks for listening to this episode of "Proclaim Peace." To hear more, you can subscribe on a podcast app of your choice or on YouTube. You can always find full show notes or transcriptions at proclaimpeace.org.

Patrick Mason (45:20)

"Proclaim Peace" is a partnership between MWEG and Waymakers. You can learn more about Waymakers at waymakers.us. Thanks again for listening and we’ll see you next time.