"Proclaim Peace" Season 2, Episode 6 // The Story of Cain and Abel: Exploring Conflict and Perspective, With Jonathan Walker

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0XxRlH3ANE

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Jonathan Walker (Jen’s brother!) joins Jen and Patrick in this episode as we dive into the profound and complex biblical story of Cain and Abel, examining themes of conflict, motives, and reconciliation from multiple perspectives. They emphasize that that peace begins with understanding our internal motives, choosing accountability, and aligning with divine principles rather than external resolutions. Whether you see yourself as a Cain or Abel in daily life, this story invites reflection on the path of reconciliation and the power of Christ’s love to heal division.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Cain and Abel story and its relevance

02:28 Approaches to multiple biblical accounts

06:31 Recognizing cues of conflict escalation

11:00 Cain's offer and the story's gaps

16:00 The role of repentance and personal responsibility

20:08 The farmer versus shepherd analogy and their symbolic meanings

24:54 Recognizing and rejecting conflict escalation

30:35 Family dynamics and managing control healthily

35:41 The importance of accountability and trusting divine judgment

41:58 Impact of our reactions to inequality and hardship

48:52 The broader vision of healing the world and individual responsibility

Transcript

Patrick Mason (00:00)

Hi everyone, and welcome to the "Proclaim Peace" podcast, where we talk about how scripture can inform our ability to be peacemakers in the world. I am Patrick Mason. I'm here as always with Jen Thomas. Jen, how are you?

Jennifer Thomas (00:11)

Patrick, I'm coming off of a bad flu, which... It was pretty epic. And for that reason, the episode that we are about to share with you is out of order. That was my fault. It was scheduled and I was at death's door. Last week we enjoyed a beautiful episode from Melaney Tagg talking about Zion and we're going a little bit backward away from Zion this week to revisit the Cain and Abel story.

Patrick Mason (00:14)

You've been like, not just a bad flu, like this sounds epic.

Well, I am glad you are back from death's door. We all are. There are some funny stories about hallucinations and whatnot. Yeah, listeners, we will try not to have any hallucinations in this episode. I think we're back in the land of semi-rationality. But we're going to be talking about one of the most famous stories in the Bible, the story of Cain and Abel. And we were thinking,

Jennifer Thomas (00:44)

It was grim.

Yes, exactly.

Yes, we are.

Patrick Mason (01:08)

What better way to do it than to highlight a couple of Walker siblings. So Jen, tell us, you know, we probably won't delve into all the secrets of your childhood on this.

Jennifer Thomas (01:15)

So, yeah, we're not we're not going to tell all the stories, but I am one of seven and my brother John is joining us today on the podcast, and part of the reason we wanted to do that, not because he and I have any deep, innate sibling conflict that we're working through. We've actually really you were not a Cain and Abel, none, nothing beyond the.

Patrick Mason (01:31)

not a Cain and Abel situation.

Jennifer Thomas (01:35)

average childhood level of attempted murder, right? Which we all do as little kids. But one of the things that I wanted to bring John on is John is very thoughtful and he thinks deeply about the scriptures and does a lot of research about them and is a really lovely person for me to talk to. And he's always been a source of wisdom as I've talked through podcast episodes in the past and

One of the things that we wanted to bring John on to highlight was just that I think, particularly in a framework of conflict resolution and thinking about the scriptures through a peacemaking lens, it's really easy to think you can only do this if you're sort of professionally trained. But ⁓ I think one of the things that we wanted to bring John on to highlight is just by approaching the gospel differently and starting to think, which he's done deeply over the last couple of years since we started this podcast,

it's opened up his mind to new ways to think about the scriptures. And ⁓ I think it's been really rewarding for him. And we just wanted to bring him on to highlight that this is accessible to all of us. It doesn't require a degree or a special, you know, special professional training to be able to think about the scriptures deeply and differently through a lens of conflict, transformation and peace.

Patrick Mason (02:45)

Yeah, and I'm so glad that we're modeling that because I mean, obviously we've had incredible professionals, know, mean, just dozens of just, yeah, amazing people who've really spent their lives studying and practicing the art of peace. But conflict finds all of us, right? You don't need a PhD to be in conflict. And so that means actually these skills and tools of peace building.

Jennifer Thomas (02:52)

And we still will. Yeah.

Patrick Mason (03:09)

are available to everybody. You don't have to have spent years and years of your life in deep study. So I love the model that we're offering here. So Jen, tell us a little bit more about your brother.

Jennifer Thomas (03:20)

Okay, well we are gonna jump into a really meaty discussion of Cain and Abel and I'm really excited about that. So I'll just introduce John briefly. He has spent his business career in marketing and market research functions. And most of those years has been researching how individuals and families manage their finances and what challenges they face. He's joked that empathy has become an occupational hazard for him and it's one of the things that I really like about John. He's chosen to take his career in a direction that has

led him towards deeper empathy for others. In the church, he served a mission in Hong Kong and has served of huge compliment of colleagues, just like we all have in young men's high council Sunday school and certainly is serving in his words, Bishop Rick. A few years ago, by direction of his state presidency, he managed what was then a very early version of a faith crisis group where they explored challenging questions about the church in a faith supported environment. And I know that for John, this completely transformed and deepened his discipleship.

and changed the way that he looked at the gospel and also the way that he looked at people who were struggling with it and just brought him, brought a lot of depth and empathy to his person. And so we're really grateful to be able to have him share this wisdom with you today.

Jennifer Thomas (04:30)

Welcome, John. We are so grateful to have you here ⁓ to discuss this naughty and thorny issue of Cain and Abel with us today. We want to start by just inviting you to answer the question that we ask all of our participants. How do you define peace?

Jonathan Walker (04:45)

That is such an interesting question and I have loved hearing how all of your guests have answered it in the past. The way it just mulls in my head is I view peace as the absence of destructive conflict and I have to throw in that destructive because I just don't see a world that progresses either spiritually, emotionally, physically without some form of conflict.

And I think conflict isn't bad. It's only bad when it destroys, it erodes, and it doesn't have that foundation of ability to move forward through the conflict in a positive way. I know that's kind of, I don't know if that's a great description or not, but that's kind of how I've always thought about it.

Patrick Mason (05:32)

No, I think that's great. And I think it is really helpful to distinguish destructive conflict from other kinds. So speaking of destructive conflict, let's talk about Cain and Abel. So obviously, this is one of the most famous stories probably in the world. One of the foundational stories for the kind of biblical world, Western world, if you want to call it that. And now as Latter-day Saints, though,

we have not one but two versions of this story because we obviously have the biblical accounts that we share with the rest of the biblical world in Genesis four. But of course, we also have the book of Moses in the Pearl of Great Price in which that's where we have Joseph Smith's translation of the first several chapters of Genesis. So in this case, we've got two versions of the story.

So Jonathan, how do you think about this? How might we think about these? Are these really just, you know, the same story with a few words that are different or how should we approach, you know, Genesis versus Moses?

Jonathan Walker (06:37)

It is so interesting because we as members of the church have an embarrassment of riches, right? I mean, we often don't realize just how much we have and how wonderful it is. But I see these two versions as their own standalone versions. And the reason for that is if you just read internally and in context what's happening in these two versions, they're not just kind of fix.

You know, the Joseph Smith translation isn't just fixing a word here or there. It's a change in perspective. when we everybody knows that when you tell a story, how you tell the story has huge implications on what you learn from the story, what the story means to you. And if we look at the Moses version, that story is first person God talking to Moses and that perspective means that the veil

is transparent. He is telling the story with this perspective that we don't often get that's very broad, very wide, and it's also very deep in the sense of it penetrates motives and personalities and what's going on that we wouldn't be able to see. The Genesis version is very much a captive within the mortal experience story, meaning

We what we learn from that story has as much to do with what the author tells us as what the author doesn't tell us and we have to pay attention to those gaps because they tell us a great deal and frankly, I don't know about your experience in mortality, but my experience in mortality is that the gaps are huge in terms of what I don't know. And so I like to treat the stories as their own standalone stories that have

Patrick Mason (08:16)

Mm.

Jonathan Walker (08:23)

an agenda in terms of what they're trying to teach us that are separate

Patrick Mason (08:27)

Yeah, and I think that's a really helpful way to frame it. And I think, you one of the most obvious differences is not only the perspective of who's telling the story, but in the Moses story, we get a third major character. So it's not just Cain and Abel, well, I guess a fourth, because there's Cain, Abel, and God in the Genesis version. In the Moses one, we get a fourth character, we get Satan. And that, you know, when you have four people on stage rather than three,

that changes the dynamics and the character interactions and the motivations. So I think you're right to read these two texts, not necessarily as one supplanting the other or something, but as two texts that both are illuminating certain aspects of this same story.

Jennifer Thomas (09:11)

So one of the things I'm really interested in this context that you've just brought up is we have a story and there's much more to this story than a sibling conflict, obviously, but there is, it is a sibling conflict and at the beginning. And I'm wondering if you could share with us a little bit about how you approach these stories differently knowing these two different perspectives that you've talked about. So for example, if I'm dealing with conflict with my brother,

I have a brother that I was talking to on a podcast. Yeah. and there was deep, conflict with that person. I'm going to read that differently through the, in the Genesis than I am in the Moses, right? Because I would see that brother very differently. you know, so I just interested in share that.

Jonathan Walker (09:40)

Who would that be? Yeah. Yeah, please don't, when you have conflicts with me, please don't read it in the context of the Moses story. Right? Because it's very unhelpful for us to look at the conflicts that we're in and be able to say, well, they're clearly just possessed by the devil. They're influenced by the devil. They are clear. Their motivations are, how do we put this? In the Genesis story, the motivations are absent.

Jennifer Thomas (10:00)

The most dispersion, exactly.

Jonathan Walker (10:20)

The initial conflict, we can talk a little bit about what the clues are to what that conflict is, but we don't know. But in the Genesis, in the Moses one, I mean, it's pretty clear. The devil made me do it, right? The devil's behind it. And if we approach our conflict with other people in the Moses perspective, then it becomes really dangerous where we can just kind of point our finger and say, well, They are in the wrong on a very deep level.

Jennifer Thomas (10:49)

And I think that's a risk we frequently run. mean, we, instead of assuming that we don't have all the details, which is true in the Genesis story, I think sometimes one of the errors we can make sometimes as people of faith is to attribute others actions that are in conflict with us or contrary to us to malevolent forces. They might be evil, they might be bad. And here in this story, we've got God telling us that's true, but that's actually really rare.

In most cases, we are assuming that we know what God thinks about someone else. And I just think there are real risks when we let that perspective overtake us.

Jonathan Walker (11:23)

Yeah, and what's really what I find fascinating is if you read some of the Jewish scholars commenting on the the story of Cain and Abel, there are a lot of people that believe that Cain actually was the one that innovated the idea of a sacrifice to God. Now, in the Mormon tradition, we know that Adam and Eve were doing that long before Cain came along. But but what I like about that framing is that it doesn't

turn Cain into an immediate villain, it asks the question of what he brought to the table. And then it brings up the really tough question of why was his sacrifice not accepted or respected and whatnot. so what I like about it, especially because in the in the Genesis version, when when in verse one and in chapter four, it says, you know, Eve says, I have gotten a man from the Lord.

My understanding is that word man is not just a male. It's almost an honorific. It is a grown man with respect. And if we take that too far enough, you can kind of say, well, OK, right now, from the Genesis point of view, what is wrong with Cain? Right. Let's put aside the Genesis version. It becomes this this unusual question of, What is really going on? Where does that conflict actually start?

Patrick Mason (12:44)

Yeah, so let's dive into this and let's talk about motives. Because I do think that one of the great things that this story reveals, and this is like right at the beginning of the Bible, right? So just like when we did the Book of Mormon in the first season, so much, know, the Book of Mormon sets up so much of this in its opening chapters. So does the Bible.

And it does it on a family level, which is where most of us experience conflicts. That's where those are the first conflicts that we all experience. So it's very, I think it very deeply speaks to the human condition in a very real and authentic way. And I think for us to reflect on intent, it does matter. mean, this is one of the things I always talk about with my students. I say, like, is somebody plunging a knife into your chest?

Jennifer Thomas (13:09)

Yeah.

Patrick Mason (13:31)

Is that violence? And they always say, yes. And I say, what if it's a surgeon? Well, maybe not. And so in. Exactly. So intent matters, setting matters, you know, all of those kinds of things. And so from the very beginning here, the Bible is cluing us into again, Genesis and Moses in different ways into questions of motive and intent. So so how do you think about that?

Jennifer Thomas (13:37)

Hehehehehe

Jonathan Walker (13:38)

Maybe it's constructive violence.

So one of the things that's interesting, I think, about this story is we are not told in Genesis what the motive is or what the conflict is. There are narrative or literary clues. I think if we take the literary nature of the Hebrew Bible seriously, we can start looking at this. instance, we're introduced to Cain and we are told that Abel was a keeper of sheep.

And Cain was a tiller of the ground. So right off the bat, we know that they have different livelihoods or there's something different about these brothers, right? But then it came to process of time that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground and offering to the Lord. What I think is fascinating is Cain starts that story. Whether he was the first one or not, it doesn't matter. What I think is fascinating is that this is Cain's story and Cain brings the first

⁓ sacrifice, but the very next verse is Abel also brought his sacrifice and it was respected by the Lord. So then we hear that Cain's sacrifice was not respected of the Lord. like literary in a literary sense, Cain's story is interrupted by Abel and Abel's success. And so we don't know what's going on in Cain's mind, but if we

look at this as Cain's story, immediately there's this sense that Abel upstages him and we don't know why, we don't know what that conflict is, we don't know whether Cain, Abel is just kind of a jerk, whether Abel is just righteous and Cain's doing it for the wrong motive. When we read the Genesis, the Moses story, we get a very different picture of why Cain offered the sacrifice.

But the beautiful thing about that Genesis story is there's a gap where the conflict exists initially. And I think that's important because we as human beings can fill that gap with the conflicts that we are recognized in our lives. If it's just about sibling rivalry, then this becomes a story about sibling rivalry. If this is a just a if the author talked about pride, this story becomes about pride.

But the fact that that initial conflict is not revealed to us tells us that the meaning of the story comes after that conflict. It's not that.

Jennifer Thomas (16:12)

So tell me more about that. So I think this is, I'm really interested to tease this apart because so much of the difficulties that we have with other people flow from us bringing our narrative to their story or bringing our understanding of what has transpired.

based on our limited vision of the world, right? And I'm wondering if there are suggestions you have for us that we as human beings can sort of head off that tendency so that if we find ourselves in a situation where conflict has entered the chat, right, whether it's between siblings or anyone else, what is a way that we can sort of step back and not impose our narrative framing on what's happening?

Jonathan Walker (16:55)

So that's what I love about the Genesis version of the story is that by not being omnipotent in this story, the narrator has left that gap and almost saying it doesn't matter what Abel's motive is. That's not the key question. The key question is how did Cain react? And what's beautiful about it is he's angry,

Jennifer Thomas (17:15)

How did Cain react or, yeah.

Jonathan Walker (17:22)

That's not the thing that ends up being the problem, right? The Lord tells him that just being angry initially didn't cause the, I mean, isn't the problem. He essentially says, if thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? Right? I mean, he's essentially saying, what does this have to do with Abel? This is not a conflict about Abel. This is what's going on in your heart. And if again, if the conflict, if we were told what Abel's heart was,

in this version of the story, then we would then be able to judge Cain differently. We'd be able to judge Abel differently. But this is a Cain story and Cain is is being called on account. And what is really interesting about that phrase, if thou doest well, I've seen it translated, if thou offerest well, right? I've also seen it is one scholar

argued that it has a sense of improvement in it. So if in that case, the Lord may not be saying, hey, if you had offered initially, well, you'd be accepted. But he's off. He's saying if you improve, won't you be accepted? Then there's the sense of repentance that is embedded in this story that forget where you were. Forget what happened just moments ago. There's a way forward and we all know what it is. I mean, there's no open question about what the way forward after that point of conflict is. And it starts in the heart, your heart, not changing someone else's heart.

Patrick Mason (18:47)

So does it matter that Cain is a farmer and Abel is a shepherd? Where does that play into thinking about motivations, how they approach it, their relationship? Is it emblematic? I don't think for all of us, it's not just like who's a farmer and who's a shepherd, right? So what can we draw from that distinction?

Jonathan Walker (19:10)

I think there are two really different directions we can take this conversation, and I think are fascinating. But I want to start with one, and there's something that Jen told me years ago that I want her to kind of summarize, because I think this is one way we can read this story. She told me about the chaos Muppets and the order Muppets, the universal theory of Muppets.

Jennifer Thomas (19:31)

Gosh, the universal theory of Muppets. Yes. Yes,

Jonathan Walker (19:35)

I think, stay with us, stay with us, because

Jennifer Thomas (19:35)

it's beautiful thing. ⁓

Jonathan Walker (19:38)

I think the universal theory of Muppets can't, friend of the podcast, yes, so Jen, tell us, tell us the universal theory of Muppets.

Patrick Mason (19:39)

I was not planning on Muppets making an appearance on this episode. This is bonus material.

Jennifer Thomas (19:49)

Okay, so this is not, I wish that I come up with the universal theory of Muppets, but it was actually originally, I think, coined by, I believe, Dahlia Lithwick, who was a long-term observer and writer about the Supreme Court. And she talks about the fact that Muppets actually are really good representation of the balance we need in the universe, that we all know that there are chaos Muppets and they're order Muppets.

And that's why their whole symbiosis works is that you've got order Muppets and chaos Muppets and that that really there is balance in the force when there are both at play when neither the order Muppets or the chaos Muppets dominate. And her other argument is that the very best chaos Muppets are the chaos Muppets that bring chaos on not with an eye to anarchy, but with an eye to creating greater order.

So they might break something in order to bring more peace or more order. But I love the theory because I think one of the things that it's given a lot of space in my mind to do is to make room for people who view the world differently than I do. That there are people who have different operational strategies to do good in the world and that just because I'm one or the other doesn't mean that I am more valuable than the other person.

but that I have something to contribute and I have to make room for the other person to contribute as well. Otherwise madness, because the Muppets only work if you've got Miss Piggy to bounce off against Kermit, or if you have, know, Sam the Eagle and Gonzo, right? That it only works if both of those things are at play, but I am dying to hear how you're gonna bring this back to Cain and Abel. So knock yourself out,

Jonathan Walker (21:27)

All right. OK, so when Adam and Eve are cast out of the Garden of Eden, we are told God tells them that Adam is the ground is cursed so that he must by the sweat of his brow make eat bread. Right. So there's this idea that the idea of tilling the ground, being a farmer is the traditionalist view.

This is what was meant to be that by the sweat of your brow, you eat bread. God even said that's that's kind of how it works. And the idea is that you've got Abel that comes along and up ends that right. He says, why would I, you know, take a shovel and by the sweat of my brow when I can sit with my pan flute and watch the sheep do the work and I can live off the fat of the land.

Jennifer Thomas (21:53)

This is the order.

Jonathan Walker (22:18)

without all the heavy labor.

Yerim Hazani is the scholar that talks about this and he talks about the idea of the farmer mentality versus the shepherd mentality. And what he's essentially arguing is that Abel is the innovator. He's the one that decides to break that curse that mankind was. He found a new way and that the Lord

Jennifer Thomas (22:38)

It's a chaos Muppet.

Jonathan Walker (22:44)

blessed that and he's like good for you for finding a new way. And so I think that Cain might have been the order Muppet, right? He's essentially saying this is the way it's done. This is the way it needs to be done and Abel is the chaos Muppet who's turning things on the end. And and if we take that one step further, I think you can look at that as being Adam and Eve as well. Adam may have been the order Muppet. He's like I was given this order. I'm sticking to this order.

And Eve might have been the innovator who says, no, we need to disrupt this in order to move forward. And what I love about that is that now you start to see that the fall of Adam and Eve was a constructive way to deal with the interaction between two very different ways of looking at the world. And Cain and Abel become a very destructive way of managing the conflict between two very different ways of looking at.

Patrick Mason (23:38)

That's fantastic. I will never read this story again without thinking about Muppets. But I actually think that's hugely helpful because, as you said, I mean, that doesn't have to be like the definitive reading of this text. The text allows us to think about other options. But I think there's a lot there and teaches us a lot about the nature of conflict.

⁓ and our approach to it, because the, whatever, know, whether, whether it's Cain's jealousy or, or, ⁓ or, impatience with Abel's innovations, you know, w whatever it might be, just the fact that like, now there's somebody else on the scene, right? If Cain was the first and, and wait a minute, I've got to make room on the stage for, somebody else. mean, so we can imagine all kinds of things going on, but

Regardless, I think the story is fairly clear that murder is not the way to solve the problem. Now, most of us are not going to be guilty of murder. And so there is a way in which we could sort of like push this off and, I'm not Cain, right? I'm not going to deal with my conflicts that way, right? That's not even a remote possibility for me. So how can we bring this back? know, so let's...

just say murder is bad. that's just like, you know, let's just put that on the table, right? Okay. But for those of us who stop short of that, are there lessons here in the ways that I might be a Cain in the way that I approach the Abels in my life?

Jonathan Walker (24:54)

think we can all agree.

Jennifer Thomas (24:55)

We'll stipulate.

Jonathan Walker (25:06)

Well, and certainly we can we can avoid the murder thing right off the bat by just saying it's a question of what we do with the conflict after we are faced with the conflict and especially when we're faced with the idea that maybe we played a role in that conflict, our anger. The question then is, do we escalate the conflict or do we de-escalate the conflict? I would argue Adam and Eve de-escalated the conflict.

They sat together and they said, how do we move forward from where we are today? And Cain went the other way. He dug in. He's like, I am justified. If only the conflict, if only Abel went away, the conflict would go away. Right? I mean, that's essentially what he did. And we do that all the time in our relationships.

Right? If only I could make the relationship go away. If only I could make the other person if I only I could win this argument and make them go away. I win the conflict. We erased them from the conflict means our victory. And I think we all I think when we think of it that way would acknowledge that's a truly terrible way to go about conflict resolution. Even if you can't ever come to a meeting of the minds. The idea that I need to

somehow erase either your agency or your ability to argue on this point or your life or anything. Yeah, it becomes the problem when we decide that the conflict, the way to resolve the conflict is to erase the other person as opposed to engage and find a way through.

Jennifer Thomas (26:28)

your presence or yeah.

So let's kind of stick with murder for a minute. I totally agree with this. We've got this. No, no, exactly the opposite. Especially it comes to siblings. mean, sometimes you just got to get rid of them. I mean, there's no other way around it. An intractable problem. But I really am intrigued by this framing that what

Jonathan Walker (26:49)

Jen's going to argue the murder point.

Especially when it comes to siblings, right? Sometimes it's justified to want to murder your sibling.

Jennifer Thomas (27:08)

Cain was doing was trying to just erase or eliminate Abel, right? Like instead of being able to manage the problem or ⁓ constructively deal with it. But there are lots of ways we do that. I'd like to stick with this violence aspect for a minute if we can, if we could just talk about that, because I think that we have a very unique view of the fall as Latter-day Saints and we don't necessarily...

reference Eve's bite of the apple or you know the bite of the fruit as the as the original sin right that and and I maybe would like to propose that the actual original sin of humanity was when violence enters it becomes a solution to problems right and and I'm wondering if you would be willing to talk with us a little bit about what this story tells us about the origin of violence and why

in both the Genesis and the Moses stories, what God is trying to communicate to us about the problems of violence. that, you know, that I think this is very emblematic of the human, emblematic of the human impulse to just say violence will solve the problem, right? I think there's a reason this story is so early in, and I think it exists.

to actually not justify violence, but to show us that that is not the way from the very beginning. And I'd love to hear your thoughts about that.

Jonathan Walker (28:25)

So this story is tough on this, right? Because what it's essentially saying is the violence is a form of control and it's a way of controlling somebody else. All the way to the ultimate point of erasing them from the story altogether. And the reason I talk about it as control is because if you think of what ends up happening to Cain.

And there's so much going on in the next few verses we'll get to. But if you think about what ultimately happens with Cain, once he is banished, he leaves, what's the very first thing he does? Well, he establishes a city, right? And in the ancient culture, cities were controlled on some level by violence. And not just...

Theoretically, but like literally the public works of cities needed to be conducted by compulsion. I need you to build this road. I'm forcing you and and back then there wasn't currency, right? So you couldn't just say I'm gonna you know tax the people the way they tax the people was was something called Corvée or Corvie, which is which is forced labor and you you know, it was your tax.

was to spend this amount of time on public works. And I don't think it's an accident that what's going on in Genesis is that we're setting up this dichotomy between the freedom of a shepherd who essentially lives off the land, goes where the land needs him to go, has ultimate freedom, both autonomously, but also in terms of morality.

Right? This freedom to choose the God you want instead of the God of the city that you are in. And I think that what's going on here is that by setting Cain up, it makes perfect sense that Cain becomes the one to innovate the idea of a city. Because what is going on, and we'll see this throughout the rest of Genesis, is this dichotomy between the constriction of the city versus the freedom of

the shepherd. And I think what the author of Genesis is telling us is we should be maximizing our freedom to choose God, to follow him. And the right path is to maximize our freedom of moral agency. And Cain does the opposite from the very beginning.

Jennifer Thomas (30:53)

and to reduce our compulsion on others, it sounds like.

Jonathan Walker (30:56)

Yes,

exactly. And I think that's a really important point is that if this is Cain's story, not only does he choose compulsion, he chooses to force that compulsion on others. Right. And if again, if we switch to the Moses version of the story, Cain is manipulated and compelled to the actions that he does by Satan. And the fact that he reverberates that through

to the control he has over the people around him, kind of tells you how the daisy chain action of both violence and control happens and what we have to do to fight against that, which is particularly difficult often in a family scenario, right? Where you are in so close quarters that, you know, this is totally aside, but in our family, we had quite a few...

Jennifer Thomas (31:26)

manipulation.

Jonathan Walker (31:48)

We had seven kids. And when we went out to eat, the question is, where do you go? Right? All of a sudden, do you compel the young kids to go to the restaurant that the older kids want to go to? Or do you compel the older kids to go to McDonald's, which they don't want to go to because the four-year-old demands to do it? And this is one of those situations where you, you know, my parents were not people of control.

And so my dad, we would sit in the car and what would my dad say? I need four votes. I need four votes, right? He forced us to work with each other and it was not uncommon for the older siblings to negotiate with the younger siblings that I'll vote for McDonald's next time if you let us go to, I can't even remember a good restaurant we used to go to, Casa Melinda or something this time.

But it's this idea of how do you in a situation of a family engender a sense of control by every member of the family when ultimate control is unhealthy.

Patrick Mason (32:52)

Yeah, I think that's really helpful. And I think it, you know, I'm thinking about the Moses version where Satan plays so prominently, totally absent in the Genesis version. And, you know, the root of the name Satan is the accuser. of course, that's what, especially again in the Latter-day Saint version of this, this is Satan's role in the garden. Again, Satan's absent in the biblical version, but we get

Satan in the the restoration versions of this story. And he's trying to get Adam and Eve to accuse each other. And they do that a little bit like the little blame game. Right. It's not my fault. It was her. And she's like, I was the serpent. Right. You know, so so so he's he's a little bit successful. But then I think, as you say, they sort of rally together and they overcome that rather than mutual recriminations.

Jennifer Thomas (33:27)

Yup. ⁓

Patrick Mason (33:43)

And here, Cain gives into it. Cain gives into a pattern of accusation, including an accusation against God. And so I want to talk about God's role here a little bit. One of the really interesting books I read in graduate school that talked about this story, it was called The Curse of Cain. And in it, the author sort of made God out to be the bad guy.

She didn't have the Book of Moses version. She was only working off of the Genesis version. And she said, it's not at all clear why Cain's offering was any less worthy than Abel's. But God chooses one over the other. And it's God's, you know, this kind of preferential treatment, right? Everybody knows when kids, you know, when they get a whiff that the parents are, you know, giving preferential treatment to one kid or to the other.

leads to all kinds of resentment and enmity and then fighting among the kids, right? I that's, that's, uh, I think we see that in a lot of families. And, and at least this author suggested that actually God's being a bad God here, or, at least, you know, uh, that, a lot of blame lies at his feet because he's, he's, you know, treating one better than the other. How do you, now, again, in in the Moses version, it, it, that's, it's pretty clean, right? Uh, it's pretty clean.

Jonathan Walker (34:57)

What a clarity.

Jennifer Thomas (34:58)

That falls apart, yeah.

Patrick Mason (35:01)

But is there any way that we can think about that from just from a Genesis perspective? What is God doing here? Why does he choose one over the other?

Jonathan Walker (35:09)

So this is one of the reasons why I think the lack of motive in the Genesis story is so important. Because if we're not careful, we fill that motive with our preferences. And then we tell the story out. And I would argue that author essentially did that. They filled the gap of no information with the information that Cain's offering was just as good as Abel's. Well, that's...

That's an assumption that we were making to the text that is not supported by the text. Now it could be and it could not be but I think the point is that what happens after that is the point if and I think that's what's so cool about the way God interacts with Cain is it echoes what he was doing in the Garden of Eden right when he comes down he's like Adam where art thou the question is the first thing.

accountability. Who are you? Where are you? What have you done? Right? And both Adam and Eve do try to shift blame a little bit, but they also take, they do admit it, right? They say, I, you know, the serpent gave me and I did eat. I did this. I did this. But there are some mitigating circumstances. So there's a bit of that. Cain doesn't do this at all. Right? The Lord comes to him and says, Cain, where is thy brother Abel?

Jennifer Thomas (36:09)

accept accountability.

Jonathan Walker (36:25)

And what does Cain say that famous saying? Am I my brother's keeper? Like he's denying that it even happened, right? Which is which is tells you a great deal about what's happening in Cain's mind. But that statement is just so amazing for so many reasons. If we unpack it, right? What is he saying? He's like, am I my son? My brother's keeper? Well, his brother was a keeper of sheep and

He's essentially saying, am I supposed to look after my brother like he looked after his sheep? Like there's this sense of derision as well as denial. And there's in our version of the Old Testament, it's not here. But in some other ancient versions like the Septuagint, which is the version of the Old Testament that, you know, Paul would have read. There's a phrase in there where Cain says,

He says, Cain talked with his brother and our version says, and it came to pass when they were in the field. Well, another ancient version of the scriptures say, and Cain talked with his brother Abel, let us go into the field. There's a quote there. There's this volition. And so when Cain takes his brother into Abel's field, he is acting as the shepherd.

And then he says to God, am I my brother's keeper? Well, you were, you just did. And we are. And so I think it's really interesting that there's parallels there in terms of how God is reacting. And the first thing God always does is asks us of our account. And why? Because that question is what's powerful for internal

assessment of what we're doing, our own motives. And if you just wag your finger at someone, it's super easy to then become defensive. But if you ask someone, what have you been doing? It invites us to really be honest with ourselves about what we're

Patrick Mason (38:21)

Yeah, exactly. And I would say another principle here that I think is helpful, and actually this author that I referred to raised it, but I think I would go a different direction than she does. But it's this principle of scarcity, right? It seems like there's only so many blessings to go around. We come across this later on with the Jacob and Esau, that there are no blessing for me, right? ⁓ That Isaac can only give one blessing.

And here again, we don't know exactly why, but at least the sense is only one offering is accepted and the other is not. And that is the world we live in. That is simply just a description of the world we live in. That some people have more than others, right? That some people seem more blessed. Again, from the Genesis perspective, it's like how we see this, right? It's from a human perspective. It sure looks like some people are a lot more blessed than I am.

and they don't deserve it, right? I deserve it more than they do or, you know, what about my offerings, God, right? And then all these horrible things happen to me or you don't, you you seem to bless other people. I mean, this is in some ways the most human thing there is. And again, the response to the story is here is it's not God justifying the fundamental unfairness of this world, right? I think that is part of the fall that we live in.

There just is scarcity and unequal distribution. Doesn't make a right, it's just a fact of the fallen world. And then the question here is, what are we going to do with it? And part of it, I love your reading of that, Am I My Brother's Keeper? But also in a scarcity context, yes, I'm my brother's keeper. And part of my role is to look out for other people, even in or especially because of all the inequities that we have in this

Jonathan Walker (40:01)

What I love about what you're saying there is that idea of the inequality. We don't know why God respected Abel and didn't respect Cain. And once again, Genesis is like squarely in the mortal realm. We don't know why so and so is blessed. There's a guy that was in our ward a few years ago and he used to joke that he just stumbles into business opportunities, right?

He can't make a mistake no matter what he does. Whatever he touches blows up and he joked about it because he doesn't take himself very seriously, but he's like, I don't know why and it's true. I don't know why I don't know why things that I've struggled. You know, I can't make business work or this person can make business work or that person can't if we if we demand an answer for why then we're missing the point that ultimately

that equality inequality is going to happen whether we like it or not on some level and it may be justified for all we know. He may just be smarter than everybody else. But for the question is how am I going to react to that. Am I going to react with resentment or am I going to react with magnanimity. And to your point if I'm the one with the abundance how do I react when those around me are not blessed do I.

fill that gap of misunderstanding with, well, it's their own fault that they don't have X, Y, or Z. Or do I fill that gap with the most charitable thing I can do, which is to support other people, build them up, and do what I can for them.

Patrick Mason (41:34)

You're thinking deeply.

Jennifer Thomas (41:35)

Well, I'm just I'm intrigued by how much this story launches us down a path of from the very origins of this narrative of human beings relationship with God is this idea, like you said, that there is going to be unfairness, there's going to be conflict. and it is our ultimate our our responsibility is how we respond to that.

that all of us are going to be interrogated by God at some point, that he is going to be Jen, where were you? Where are you? Where is your heart? That that is, that that is the question that I have to be prepared to answer, not why does a super uncomfortable question. It's really easier for me to come back at that. Well, okay, but it wasn't my fault because Patrick had more stuff than me and he was mean about it. And so of course I was going to like murder him and

Jonathan Walker (42:14)

super uncomfortable question.

Yeah, but what about Jeff Bezos?

Jennifer Thomas (42:29)

Right? Right. And there are a million, a million justifications for all of us as to why we wouldn't. But the ultimate, the very beginning, what God is saying is at the heart of this journey for you on the earth is our two things. It's your relationship with me, your willingness to bend your will to mine, to be responsive to what I ask of you, and then your responsibility to be aware of and be a keeper of those around you. And that is like very, very early on.

this proto introduction of this, you know, these two great commandments. You love the Lord your God and then your neighbor, you know? And so I'm, it's an.

Jonathan Walker (43:08)

those conflicts absolutely exist in this story, right? We can see the conflict Cain has with God. We can see the conflict Cain has with Abel, and we can see the conflict Cain has with himself in not being able to control his anger. In 15 short verses, we're seeing all of those things churn, which I think is just fascinating.

Jennifer Thomas (43:14)

Yes.

Yes.

And the unwillingness and inability to manage that breeds resentment. It breeds violence. breeds it. It ultimately, to your point earlier in this conversation, breeds a whole different path for a civilization that is seated in these in coercion control, slavery, enslavement, you know, all of these things that these decisions that we each of us make it just really is making me think.

clearly that the decisions that each of us make to either align ourselves with God or not, there are knock-on effects of that, that we can't necessarily control and that we can't necessarily ⁓ also negate. So we need to be cautious and careful about how we allow.

Jonathan Walker (44:12)

Exactly. And Cain, this story, you had mentioned this earlier, this is another fall. And this is literally another fall. And I think we see that in all the things that are echoed, right? In terms of how God questions the mistakes that are being made, the banishment, the curse, right? God cursed the ground. He cursed Cain's ability to... All of these things, I don't think it's an accident.

that the author here is using the same kind of language. And what it's saying is each one of us can fall. There is a fall within each one of us. And the beautiful thing about this one is in the first fall with Adam and Eve, God sends them out and, you know, he puts up the cherubim and a flaming sword, right? In the second fall,

Cain is we get no indication that God is throwing Cain out, which I think is really interesting. We hear that he's going to be a vagabond and Cain is the one that says I am being thrown out and then Cain says and then Cain separates separates himself from the presence of the Lord. He separates himself. It's this idea that when the fall of Adam and Eve is not the thing that kills all of us.

It's not the thing that damns all of us spiritually. It's the fall of Cain. It's when we, the fall of Jonathan, how do we react when we run into those problems? And do we separate ourselves from God or do we align ourselves with him?

Patrick Mason (45:43)

that's exactly right. And as we kind of start to wrap up here, I'm thinking again about the beauty and the economy of this narrative, both in the Bible and in the Pearl of Great Price, that in Moses, it's a couple chapters later where Enoch will see God weeping. And why is God weeping? Because the humans hate their own blood, right? And that even several generations later, Enoch's generations

basically still lives in the world that Cain made, not in the world that God intended. And this is what God weeps over. It's when we live in Cain's world. Now, you know, the Bible gives us, know, God sort of does a reset with Noah and that's, know, but then even God says that you can't reset it every time, right? And he says, okay, I'm not gonna do that again, right? And the whole rainbow and everything.

there is a reset, know, least for Christians, Jews of course would read this differently, but for Christians, and in the Pearl of Great Price, Enoch sees the prophecy of Jesus coming. Like, this will be a different way, right? And so then, for those of us reading this text, and the Pearl of Great Price is so explicit about this, this is the question that we have. Do you want to live in Cain's world, or do you want to live in Jesus's world?

Jennifer Thomas (46:45)

That's the reset.

Patrick Mason (46:58)

These are the two worlds that you have before us and God's not gonna do the reset, God's not gonna do the work for us, right? Until maybe the end of time, right? But right now, yeah, you're exactly right, Jonathan. We each live in our individual falls, but will we stay there? Will we be vagabonds, exiled from ourselves, from God, from others? Or will we seek redemption and reconciliation through the way of Jesus?

Jonathan Walker (47:20)

And there's two levels to that, right? There's the overcoming our own fall through repentance, faith, baptism, gift of the Holy Ghost. And then there's the second level of that, which is the Abrahamic covenant. Are you going to be the one to heal the world? Are you going to play a role in being part of bringing God's version of the world? Or are you going to just exist in? And that's the great dichotomy between

Jennifer Thomas (47:45)

Yeah.

Jonathan Walker (47:46)

kind of Zion and Babylon, right? Which role do you want to play? And that's what I think is so fascinating about what the Lord is doing in Genesis in telling this story is how are we to heal this world and how are we to heal the human soul?

Jennifer Thomas (48:01)

So I love this. think this is a beautiful place to end because I think it's inviting us. I love that the way you two have framed this is that first step is am I going to set myself apart, follow God? But you can still do that while living in Cain's world. And I think that's the mistake is that we say, OK, well, I'm just going to live righteously in my own little home or I'm going to create my own little bubble where I am still going to function in Cain's world, but I'm going to do it.

a little bit on God's terms, I'm going to do my best to be a good person. And then that next step is to say, no, no, I am going to reject Cain's world and I am going to be an agent of bringing Christ's world. I'm going to dedicate myself to creating something entirely new that is on the pattern of this, of this beautiful shepherd, right? That gathers and brings us in. So thank you, John. Thank you so much. Can we close with one final question?

I asked the first one, but I'll do it again. how do you find peace?

Jonathan Walker (48:58)

So for me, I find peace when my thoughts, my behaviors, and my values are aligned. And I find that peace, regardless of what happens around me, I find that peace often most directly when I'm serving other people. When I get out of my own head, because that aligns all of those identities so well.

I mean, I, my inclination is I can churn in my own head all day long. And, but when I can get out of myself, sometimes it's just delving into the scriptures or sometimes it's just being on my knees or something. Often it's just visiting someone who needs to be visited. That's when I get out of myself and I find the peace that I feel like often the world feels like it's lacking.

Patrick Mason (49:47)

Thank you so much, Jonathan. It's been great to have you on the podcast.

Jonathan Walker (49:50)

Thank you.

Jennifer Thomas (49:50)

Thanks for listening to this episode of "Proclaim Peace." To hear more, you can subscribe on a podcast app of your choice or on YouTube. You can always find full show notes or transcriptions at proclaimpeace.org.

Patrick Mason (50:04)

"Proclaim Peace" is a partnership between MWEG and Waymakers. You can learn more about Waymakers at waymakers.us. Thanks again for listening and we’ll see you next time.